Wondering about the popularity of 'no live scoring'

[Yahyra]

Hi T Mars forums,

Lately I've noticed quite a few folks host tables with 'No live scoring' as the option.

Of course I am aware different people enjoy different game options; I was hoping some folks could share with me their preference for using this option.

Is the allure of using 'no live scoring' :


- You enjoy calculating points by hand / mentally (as some sort of exercise?) : you can just not look at the point display, or I guess redo the calculations as often as you like?

-Feeling the game is 'less competitive / cutthroat'? The fact that you cannot see the scoring 'live' doesn't mean scoring isn't there and doesn't exist.

-You think the live scoring slows the game down? Won't players having / wanting to calculate the score to judge and choose from their options take even longer?


As is probably evident; my opinion is that this game option makes little sense. If you don't want to 'compete' or 'score'; the game has a solo mode, doesn't? If you want to play a 'cooperative' solo mode style game with likeminded friends or folk; you can just host a normal game and 'ignore' the score? Is that the whole point of no live scoring; feeling like you aren't competing? There's some ways to play friendly games (include using Preludes atm, which I love and don't want to play without) where there's no ELO rating /exchange; that can make it feel like it is not competing.

I mean no insult or detrimental thoughts towards anyone who enjoys the 'No Live Scoring' option. I am genuinely about its popularity. I often see someone hosting a table of T Mars with the options I love (including Prelude) but they have 'no live scoring' turned on so I don't join. Sometimes they spend a ton of time without anyone else joining even. I've even messaged a few of them to politely ask if they would consider turning off 'no live scoring' so I could join the table and we could play. No replies yet.


Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts. Best wishes everyone.

[nanospy]

One reason might be that 'no live scoring' more closely matches OTB play, where printed VP on cards are not visible.

[A Glitch]

All due respect, the "printed VP on cards are not visible" argument is absurd. First of all, that's simply not true - you are allowed to look at what cards your opponent has played. And even if you weren't allowed to look at the card VP but only the card name, any veteran of the game knows exactly how many points each card is worth.

Point is, any strong player can and will do this in their head OTB regardless. Live scoring simply makes this easier for all players to play at a higher level.

[MrYama]

Not a fan of No Live scoring, however I would argue people choose it because they don't want to know their score or their opponent's so to keep the element of surprise.

Yes, you can calculate it, but I believe people that select this option don't actually do it as it probably defeats the purpose of it to begin with.

OTB play is similar.. though you can check and calculate your opponents score, in my experience nobody ever does it, and this also makes it interesting when people believe someone is ahead when they really aren't (again, keeping the element of surprise).

Another reason might be to keep players encouraged and believing in the he possibility of a victory. Seeing that you are 30 points down can discourage you and take the fun out of the game

[Mouse100]

I hate live scoring. When you play the board game there is no live scoring.

I lose a lot. I mean I win maybe 1 in 10 games. I'm ok with that but not if I know on turn 3 that I have no hope. Then I just play out the game but I don't enjoy it and I really resent people taking a long time to take their turns because I'm just 'putting in time'.

If I have no idea what the score is then I enjoy the game right up to the end. I might still lose but at least I have fun.

I will never play with live scoring again now that it is an option to avoid it.

[Yahyra]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I was wondering why people like it, and I heard your opinions.

I will say to those that say:

"When you play the board game there is no live scoring."

I am sure that perhaps when _you_ play, there is no live scoring...

As you can tell from many of the other responses in this thread... many others of us are keeping the score in real time when we play in real life.


To those that 'want to be surprised'; that's fine, enjoy your surprises. I think there's (a sizable) contingent of players that calculate their moves, strategy, odds etc. and play accordingly. As such, knowing the accurate/ current score of the game is a profoundly important piece of information to have.

For my part, playing without live scoring is depriving yourself of part of the mechanisms that BGA 'does automatically'. It makes no sense to me; no more than if you told me you wanted to play 'without live production' and you turned on an option that forced you to move resource cubes from the supply to your player board manually; instead of having BGA do it for you.


Looking forward to more discussions if anyone wants to post further, and more fun games.


Best wishes everyone.

[Nekojin]

I don't have perfect memory. I'm reasonably good at remembering significant changes in the game, but won't remember every played card that gives a few victory points, and it feels rude to keep asking my opponents to show the cards. So I appreciate the live scoring showing how mercilessly I'm crushing my opponents. Or, when I'm losing, how much extra work I need to catch up.

I'll play it either way.

[Jellby]

Keeping the live score in your head requires some effort, and memory (and lack of mistakes). To some (many?) people, this is part of the game.

Live scoring simply makes this easier for all players to play at a higher level.

That's not necessarily good. Players who are good at keeping score may want to use it as an advantage. And while in turn-based games it's easy to keep notes and update the scores every turn, I don't think it's so trivial in real-time games.

Would you say that games like Yahtzee or Can't Stop should compute and display the odds of every move (before you take it)? Surely that's something every player can do for themselves, so why not let the computer do it?

[Yahyra]

I don't have perfect memory. I'm reasonably good at remembering significant changes in the game, but won't remember every played card that gives a few victory points, and it feels rude to keep asking my opponents to show the cards. So I appreciate the live scoring showing how mercilessly I'm crushing my opponents.

I agree with you completely. I absolutely think live scoring is a useful feature and completely appreciate it.

[Shufflepants]

I've gotten used to the live scoring on here, so I don't mind it much any more, but I find it a bit absurd to believe that all strong players are keeping exact running tallies of the exact score of every player in an OTB game. Sure, all project cards are technically public knowledge. And if a player wants to know how many of a certain kind of tag everyone has, or if they want to know what a particular card did, or they want to know the exact count of how many resources on a card, or how many events everyone has played; all of that is fine, and I'd answer those questions. But if some one at my table asked everyone to tally up their complete point total on all their cards, I'd say 'no, take your turn'. Or if they asked to look at every single card, I'd say 'no, take your turn'. Or if they asked exactly which events I've played, I'd say 'no, that's now hidden information. If you don't remember, that's on you.'. And if they tried to take physical notes on paper to try to keep a running point total, I'd say that's not allowed.

Remembering what was played, which cards actually have a lot of points on them, and figuring out who is ahead is a skill, and as I see it, part of the game. In an OTB game I even see it as a skill to remember the number of tags played by others. Because even looking too intently or asking a player for the number of tags of some kind they have can clue in your opponents as to what you're about to do. It can remind them that milestones and awards exist. And I definitely play better on here when I have tags and exact scores at a glance.

Having no live score actually helps with a problem that other games have. One big criticism I've heard of Wingspan, is that it is far more obvious as to which player is winning. And this can lead the game to be unfun for everyone besides the leading player as they just wait for the game to be over. Whereas in TM, since it is much harder to mentally tally up the current points, who has the best engine, and on what generation the game will actually end; it can be far less clear who's winning. And not knowing an exact score helps with that.

Though, I do agree that the argument that live scoring slows the game down is nonsense. I find having a live score can help to end the game faster. If a player knows that they are 30 points ahead, they would be more inclined to just spam standard projects to end the game while they are still ahead. But if they're unsure; if they're worried that 1 or 2 cards from their opponent could swing it; but know they have a better economy; if they have a few very high scoring cards in their hand that they don't have the resources to play in addition to ending the game this gen; then they'll be far more inclined to stalling the game out for another entire gen to ensure that they win. Or if I know I'm ahead and I can play more quickly because I know a slight mistake won't throw the game. But if I don't know I'm ahead, I find myself more likely to spend a lot of time trying preplan the exact perfect plays in case every last point matters.

And yeah, not having an exact score can be kinda annoying at times. It can lead to players targeting the wrong player with attack cards. But I completely understand why people wouldn't want it, as that's exactly how I like it in OTB games.