Best and Worst Corps discussion

[Yahyra]

It absolutely does. If you understood the math, you'd know why. The strength of various corps varies wildly depending on player count, what expansions are in play, and game length.

Absolutely agreed; my one post in this thread was to say this (I don't think I mentioned expansions, but thought it was well implied).

[esadygov]

The cheapest energy card is Fueled Generators (1 cr), not Power Plant. With either of these cards, though, Thorgate plays Cupola City for 22 or 23 cr. Peroxide Power is also good for Thorgate as it fuels enough energy production for two cities for a cheap cost. Thorgate can play Peroxide Power, Cupola City, and Noctis City for 47 cr. Peroxide Power, Immigrant City, and Urbanized Area for 36 cr, crowding Tharsis’ starting city. I love doing this! And also making tharsis sweat that they might not get mayor after all. Any of the above plays can be done with Thorgate’s starting money.

Thorgate’s competitiveness depends on its starting cards, as a lot of it depends on how long you have those cities in play. But the 48 cr starting money and the -3 discount on energy cards is pretty decent, especially given that in draft people often pass the energy or energy-burners you want.

Credicor is a nice corporation, but I have often chose my other corp for one thing or another, due to the certainty of playing against either Tharsis or Ecoline, both of which need to be nerfed out of the gate by my initial actions if I can. Credicor can tempt you into playing some card solitaire with all its starting money.

Fueled generators costs 1 cash prod. If you attempt to play it early to play a city for “prod” then you lose more money from fueled than 7$ despite appearing to cost 1+3$=4$. If you attempt to play it late then it’s cheaper but then there’s no debate it’s not prod. Which isn’t the argument you’re making, but a lot of people like to say cities are prod and it might be something you believe without saying it. If not still clears it up for others reading. If fueled is 3$ for thorgate and cupola 19$ then that’s 22$ for 2 cash prod which will take 11 generations to pay off. I didn’t mention fueled because prod wise it’s worse than power plant. This is the same reason I didn’t mention immigrant city as the cheapest city because it loses a cash prod which over the course of the game will often cost more money than cupola(which starts with difference of 4 more cash prod) (and I didn’t mention corporate because it’s -2 vp which is very bad). And if we bought 3 cities at the value of cupola with fueled it’s 66$ for 6 cash prod(11 generation pay off) instead of 78 for 9 cash prod(8.5 generation pay off). 12 cash cheaper for 3 cash prod less. In terms of controlling board space these cities only matter if you can get greeneries that follow up on them. So the goal is to first get the plant prod that can support a crazy amount of cities, or otherwise only play cities to leech off vp from greeneries already on the board. And even then most skilled ecoline players won’t care and will feed you plenty of 2 vp cities and still win the game with a crushing score.

It gets worse if u try to play fueled generators with other prod cards, as 4$ and 9$ for fuel factory to be just 1 titanium prod instead of a 1 titanium prod and 1 cash prod. There are plenty of good situation to use fueled generators but it’s not the cheapest card beyond the literal price tag because it costs 1 cash prod which is usually more than the 3$ saved. It nerfs any prod cards by 1 cash prod.

Playing cities against tharsis doesn’t nerf tharsis, it buffs tharsis beyond what it normally is. Hence false inflation in corporation strength. You end up playing against an unusually strong tharsis. It’s not ignorable to have tharsis as an opponent that spams cities,
but I find it’s usually beatable without spamming cities as long as I play good cards(which cities aren’t most of the time). The times I lose to this the most is when I have dead hands that would lose against opponents who do literally anything to get vp or cash prod. And some of those games might be a skill issue on my end. While it’s not ignorable what tharsis can do it’s also not busted at 2 or 3 unless tharsis opponents decide to help tharsis out.
I recall one particuarly annoying 3p game I played where an opponent broke their back to get mayor gen 3 against tharsis. That opponent spent the whole game dirt poor because he overextended to get milestones, particularly bad 0 vp milestones, and experienced the hard way that cities aren’t prod(and I suspect failed to attribute the reason he was so poor). Consequentially tharsis snowballed off the income that came from that and got first, though I was not far behind in second(within 10 vp iirc). The city spammer was third by over 20 points. I remember feeling very annoyed because the guy in third aggressively king made tharsis by racing to mayor for no reason and continuing to play cities whenever he could(probably little bit of hyperbole but he did it a lot even after mayor) with what little cash he had for the remainder of the game. If you want to take actions to nerf tharsis avoid playing too many cities. If tharsis is a top 3 Corp at your tables it’s likely you are playing in a way that helps tharsis. You are telling me that you feel tharsis is strong and scary, but the actions you are taking to combat this are what makes it strong and scary. Without those actions it’s an average corporation. If I played at your tables I might still take tharsis more often just because it sounds like the people you play with will actively help you win the game as tharsis. But I wouldn’t spam cities against a tharsis opponent because this makes them stronger than they are.

Regarding immigrant city, it’s not a prod card unless you are mining guild. Some people might argue if you are tharsis as well, I’m not gonna debate that because while I don’t think so it’s harder to prove at higher player counts. If we use the cheapest power card(other than fueled generators which docks a cash prod making any prod card you play with it slightly worse) that’s 23$ for -1 cash prod. It will only pay off if your opponents decide the competitive response is to spam cities(which it isn’t, and for very obvious reasons). Otherwise you spent 23$ to get -1 one cash prod, and to get back to 0 cash prod you have to pay 26$(assuming optimal cupola). To be a profit of 1 cash prod you have to pay 28$(assuming noctis with 7$ power). The only other way to make it a profit is if opponents play cities. At 4 and 5 they likely will and should. At 2 and 3 they likely shouldn’t play more than one city early(cities are point investments not prod, you don’t play more cities until you need more spaces to place your trees next to or can leech vp off someone else’s trees). I would say best case immigrant city is close to cupola in value if you are either lucky and it’s actually correct to play that many cities early or more likely you or your opponents misplayed. There definitely are situational games were u might play more cities than normal early but it’s not most games. Most 2p and 3p games you should play 0-1 cities early, and maybe a few cities towards the end of the game to leech off vp present on the board or teleport(move from your area to convert greeneries elsewhere) somewhere with better rebates.

Urbanized area is a nice card to play when it’s worth 2 or more points the second you put it down(and normally I prefer 3 or more). It’s often just bad if you play it for 0 vp (2 cash prod and -1 power prod is clearly not prod) because your opponent is less likely to place greeneries next to it once it’s already on the board. It’s a trick card you play when there are trees next to your opponents city not before. It’s also generally better not to play it by your own cities, because in the place you put urbanized you could put a greenery that’s otherwise 3 vp(not counting the tr).


Regarding thorgate being competitive with tharsis, I again refer to my earlier unaddressed point that by fighting tharsis for mayor you are investing a large sum of money to give your opponent free money and then get 5 points. If u wanna be technical 10 vp difference against tharsis for giving tharsis 3 free cash prod). If I am tharsis and you open immigrant into urbanized and “steal mayor” from me, I am not going to be sweating I am going to be thanking you for helping me win. I say “steal mayor” because most tharsis games I do not consider mayor a goal(admittedly I am more likely to go for mayor as tharsis though, just not something I do on average but more than I otherwise would).

That said I don’t think tharsis is terrible. I 100% agree with you that depending on starter I might take it. I don’t think it’s anything special though, it’s just a run of the mil mid tier Corp that opponents often misplay against causing it to gain false strength. At higher player counts(4p as well but mainly 5p), when real estate disappears faster if you don’t claim it, then it becomes busted. At 4 I would assume it is solidly in the A tier and at 5 solidly either first or second place in the S tier. I am not educated enough to be certain, but I imagine it is a B tier Corp in 3p. I am educated enough to know it is not an S tier Corp in 3p(unlike credicor which is in the s tier at every single player count). Ironically the opposite happens to ecoline and it is s tier at 2p but worse at 5p than tharsis is at 2p because there is no real estate left to build on after the corps with better starting money claim ground and because you will be the target of every asteriod.

In regards to thorgate idk what more to say. The starting money is definitely good, but it’s basically going through the game with no corporation power(not literally, but as close as you can get). This is because 3 dollar discount on energy is just not competitive to any other corporation power ceiling wise. I could run through all of them but that would be exhausting so I’m going to pick a random “weaker” Corp. Take a lot at Phoblog which is generally considered a “weaker” Corp because it lacks consistency. It’s ceiling is you can play giant ice asteroid or io mining gen 1 or otherwise early for free getting a bunch of starting prod. That’s pretty good, because these are high impact cards. Thorgates ceiling is you can do all the things helion does but worse. Alternatively you can use cheap power to play cheap prod cards, which while not terrible I would rarely take an entire Corp for low impact prod cards. Additionally you can play cheaper cities that are still not prod but this is not competitive for reasons stated above. The best use is knock off helion. The second best maybe 1 or 2 prod cards like fuel factory or building industries which are already very hand dependent on you finding stuff to spend minerals on and sometimes cities when you need them(but they are not prod). What I am saying is most cards with an energy requirement are average or well below average(some noteworthy exceptions ofc). That means your targets aren’t insane if this is what your using the corporation power for, which you made it clear to me you are. The best use imo is as a knockoff helion, but this has the caveat of being strictly worse than helion lol. I would say it’s objectively the worst corporation at every single player count which makes it the opposite of credicor which is the best corporation at every single player count(except maybe 5). That said I might still take it if my hand synergies with it, because tier lists are kinda useless beyond providing a baseline. This is a dynamic game where you make choices on the cards given and all tier lists do is serve to help evaluate the general strength of a thing as well as be fun to debate about. While I put it at the bottom it’s probably correct to take it over phoblog most of the time(because phoblog without any starting space cards is just dirt poor with little to no starting development) but I would personally take phoblog over thorgate most of the time because phoblog just has a higher ceiling(cards with space tags are significantly better than cards with power tags usually) and if I’m really stuck with thorgate or phoblog with no space tags I’d rather gamble on finding something than start with a Corp that is that weak.


Regarding taking thorgate over credicor in order to fight tharsis and ecoline, one of the reasons credicor is super strong is that it can cheaply standard project. Combined with the card standard technologies especially you can standard project a greenery for net 16$ plus a cash prod and 2 vp(if it’s worth a tr) And if you do it by ocean it’s even better. And in less common situations you can also standard project a city. The point of this being is that credicor is one of the strongest board corporations. Part of why I say any starter is a credicor starter, because at worst you have cheaper access to the board(although you have to understand when it’s correct to do this, otherwise you might spend money inefficiently)

I suspect that a lot of what you consider “nerfing out” ecoline and tharsis either doesn’t nerf out either corp, in terms of ecoline likely does little(though vp you gain is not ignorable it is often regularly not game winning against even most mediocre ecoline with decent player piloting) and in terms of tharsis actively makes them stronger. Some of the strongest games of ecoline I’ve played with no cities, and my opponent keeps spamming cities to cover all my trees and still gets crushed. Because cities don’t win most games, especially not early 0 vp cities(I say this but playing exactly one early 0 vp city to claim real estate is often fine. Doing more than this not so much fine.).

Apologize for the length this is quite a text wall lol. Again I might have used some hyperbole, very bad habit lol, but the general points should be correct.

[KeithHendricks]

You’re analyzing Fueled Generators as a single play when I always play it as part of a card combo, and I’m sure most other players see it in the same way, and would never play it as a single card. The correct analysis of the card’s value in the above card combo situation (Thorgate playing Fueled Generators and Cupola City) is 22 cr for a city with a net +2 income, which, when you compare it with buying a standard project city for 25 cr and +1 income, is a little better, and easier to squeeze out in early generations when money is often tight after buying cards.

Thorgate starting with Peroxide Power, Immigrant City and Urbanized area is also a pretty great bargain as for 36 cr, you get 2 cities, with a net +/- 0 income, and an ongoing effect of plus one income for each city played, which is basically matching one of Tharsis’s abilities. I would say 36 cr for 2 cities, no income, and +1 income for each city played is pretty fantastic to play in generation 1, or even generation 2. It’s certainly better than buying two standard project cities.

All of this is simply income analysis and doesn’t measure the VP effect of locking down 2 of the circa 16 cities you can cram into the average endgame board state.

Sure, if you analyze these cheap energy cards in isolation they come out as bad bargains, but when you see the energy cards as coupons that help you play city cards, the resulting combos are actually pretty great deals, and very speedy at making changes to the board state and the race for the Mayor and Builder milestones, and chipping away a little at Landlord and possibly Banker.

Those with cheap energy card and city cards in their starting hand should seriously consider picking Thorgate for their starting corps.

[Corbz]

You’re analyzing Fueled Generators as a single play when I always play it as part of a card combo, and I’m sure most other players see it in the same way, and would never play it as a single card. The correct analysis of the card’s value in the above card combo situation (Thorgate playing Fueled Generators and Cupola City) is 22 cr for a city with a net +2 income, which, when you compare it with buying a standard project city for 25 cr and +1 income, is a little better, and easier to squeeze out in early generations when money is often tight after buying cards.

Thorgate starting with Peroxide Power, Immigrant City and Urbanized area is also a pretty great bargain as for 36 cr, you get 2 cities, with a net +/- 0 income, and an ongoing effect of plus one income for each city played, which is basically matching one of Tharsis’s abilities. I would say 36 cr for 2 cities, no income, and +1 income for each city played is pretty fantastic to play in generation 1, or even generation 2. It’s certainly better than buying two standard project cities.

All of this is simply income analysis and doesn’t measure the VP effect of locking down 2 of the circa 16 cities you can cram into the average endgame board state.

Sure, if you analyze these cheap energy cards in isolation they come out as bad bargains, but when you see the energy cards as coupons that help you play city cards, the resulting combos are actually pretty great deals, and very speedy at making changes to the board state and the race for the Mayor and Builder milestones, and chipping away a little at Landlord and possibly Banker.

Those with cheap energy card and city cards in their starting hand should seriously consider picking Thorgate for their starting corps.

In a 2 or 3 (or probably even 5) player game you should never get 16 cities. Really one city, or max two with lots of plant prod, is plenty, and often if you are rushing the terraforming parameters you shouldn't play any. Spending 36 money for no income early in the game is very bad. If another 13 cities come down straight away for +13 income that's obviously better, but if anyone does that whilst playing you that's just bad play. The response to you playing immigrant city, is let you have the negative cash prod until the end game and then play max one or two cities.

[KeithHendricks]

Cities will always be played, at least if Tharsis, Ecoline, mining guild or interplanetary cinematics are in play. That’s such good gamble that if I had those cards in my starting hand I would always try to play them as I described. Also a good combo for IC or tharsis.

I can also encourage participation in a ground game by funding landlord early.

[KeithHendricks]

I have also used peroxide power to get out income boosters like electro catapult or strip mine. Thorgate is also good for plays like this.

There are a lot of energy / building card combo plays that are very easy for Thorgate.

[HighlanderKG]

I don't think Thorgate is the worst corp, but you are definitely overestimating it. The value of Thorgate lies in using the combo for example for Strip Mine early (one of the rare corps that can do it) and it has rebates for some great cards like science energy cards. But, for that to be really valuable, you need to do it in a precise moment (and be lucky to have those cards in those moments) to gain advantage over others when money is scarce. Further on, when the ability from corps are making much more in mid to late game, Thorgate ability is useless and it falls flat. I think it is better than Inventrix and UNMI, similar to Helion, Phobolog is either great or unplayable.

[Deimos187]

Player skill and proper luck mitigation trumps all. Also, my personal preferences in corporations is fluid and changes based on my starting hand synergies.

[OwnerOfTheIronThrone]

After some rethinking, for 3p (I don't play other counts):
1. Credicor
2. Cinematics
3. Terractor
4. Ecoline
5. Tharsis
6. Saturn
7. Helion
8. Mining guild
9. Inventrix
10. Thorgate
11. Phobolog
12. Unimi

I think many excelent players overrate ecoline because their weaker opponents don't realize how much does hate drafting heat prod and temp events does vs ecoline as engine player. If ecoline has those from the start though he is a beast.
Also good players underrate tharsis because bad players overrate it. I have to admit even recently I though it was better than what I think now, but I still think it's good. SP city next to 2 forests as tharsis is just a little inefficent and it opens acess to easy milestone. Also your city makes it easier to pursue gardener.
Helion crazy underrated. Heat prod is essential to close the game as terraforming player, but it's awkward as heck for everyone except helion.

[nanospy]

I think many excelent players overrate ecoline

I still think you are overrating it

Phobolog is too situational to give a meaningful ranking. With a good start hand it can be very good, and with a bad start hand it won't be chosen.

At 2p UNMI is the worst, but at 3p it might be better than Thorgate or Inventrix. At 4p it can be downright average.

Thorgate improves noticeably with Colonies in play.

What would it take to make Inventrix good? Methane from Titan might be the best start card, but that only goes so far. It was a cool idea for a corporation but it needs something more.