🌿ELO System Updates

[RazorOz]

Do you have more details about this apparent 7 day cutoff thing? Because I am definitely not seeing it in my games. So eg. my last game:

https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=504137244

https://boardgamearena.com/gamestats?pl ... ateStats=1

I have not played this player for 12 days, and still got -25% ELO.

Tbh even if it was 7 days I think it should be more like 2-3 days max, this would still achieve the apparent goal of stopping cheaters, while not absolutely bodying anyone who plays frequently.

[ChiefPointThief]

They need to work on temporary thumbs. I doubt the majority of people are noting who they red thumbed and reverting them after the time period is up.

[h_illes]

Do you have more details about this apparent 7 day cutoff thing?

I don't have anything official, I just observed it in my win streaks, and it seemed consistent. For example, here, there is no win streak penalty for the game on 23/04; the game before that was on 12/04, so 11 days apart.
https://boardgamearena.com/gamestats?pl ... finished=1

A couple more examples where it is prominent:
https://boardgamearena.com/gamestats?pl ... finished=1
https://boardgamearena.com/gamestats?pl ... finished=1

But I can also see that for your win streak in Heat, it's different, as if a longer cutoff period was still in effect. I don't know what's up with that. One more reason why we need details from an official source instead of trying to figure them out based on a small sample of results.

[Boudica of Celtia]

The stakes should be set before the result is known. Only reduce stakes if I win but not when I lose is unfair.

I don't wanna accept a rematch invitation from someone who lost to me and wants to try again.

[GeoPaladin]

Dear Players,

We appreciate you taking the time to share your feedback regarding the ELO system. We value your input and are committed to ensuring a fair and balanced ranking system for all players.

We understand your concerns about the impact of consecutive losses against the same opponent and the limited visibility of past ELO changes. We have carefully reviewed your feedback and are actively working on addressing these issues.

Upcoming Changes:

1. Avoiding ELO Loss for Consecutive Losses:
First, the introduction of an ELO reduction for consecutive wins is a positive change, from our point of view and analysis in the long run– it has become more difficult to abuse the system. Your ELO is a measure of your skill on a game against the whole community, and you should not receive any benefits from repeatedly playing against the same player(s).

However, we recognize that losing consecutive games to the same opponent can be frustrating and can lead to an unfair ELO drop. To address this, we will be implementing a mechanism to prevent ELO loss for consecutive losses against the same opponent, like how consecutive wins are currently handled. This will help maintain a more balanced ELO distribution.

2. Extending ELO Calculation Visibility:
When we introduced the change in the ELO system, the ELO detail tooltip was only available for 1 week after the game ends.



We acknowledge that the limited availability of the tooltip was a temporary measure to prevent inconsistencies during the transition to the new system. We will be extending the duration for which this tooltip is available. The objective is to have it available for a full Arena season, if our server bears it!

3. Red Thumbs Change for next Arena Season:
There is no perfect solution towards the abuse of Red Thumbs at the moment. The initial solution we had considered would also negatively impact players that are not even playing in Arena.

Several possibilities are being discussed; however, we have yet to find the perfect solution. Some of the ideas we are considering for implementation in the short term include:

• considering a higher Karma threshold to join Arena,
• preventing players under no-chat moderations from joining Arena tables,
• having a new kind of player Thumb (Orange ones related to Arena),
• being banned from the current season and ranking from a game
• ...

Finally, remember to focus on having fun, challenging yourself, and enjoying the competition!

ELO isn't a prize or a badge of honor. ELO ratings serve as a tool to gauge relative skill levels and find well-matched opponents, not a measure of personal worth. Focus on enjoying the games, learning from your opponents, and refining your strategies to become a true board game master!

We're always listening to your feedback and working to make Board Game Arena the best place to play. Keep those messages coming!

See you at the tables,

The Board Game Arena Team

It's been a month and a half. Any word on how you're going to make this system less unfair to arena users?

Have you even considered reducing the amount of time between wins? Or allowing games finished against other players to reduce your winstreak penalty?

For instance, if I have six consecutive wins against a player, I gain 0 elo - even if I gained those wins over 3 weeks and with 30 other games in between. It should be obvious that if someone plays a significant number of games between rematches, they aren't elo grinding the person they have a winstreak against.

Please walk back this system or at least put more reasonable requirements in place.

[h_illes]

Dear Players,

We appreciate you taking the time to share your feedback regarding the ELO system. We value your input and are committed to ensuring a fair and balanced ranking system for all players.

...

We're always listening to your feedback and working to make Board Game Arena the best place to play. Keep those messages coming!

The ranking system is still unfair, ever since the changes in December, and the single round of update (which went unannounced in this topic, by the way) failed to solve all of the issues. So IF you mean what you wrote, it's time for another update. (The issues and also possible solutions have been listed in this topic, all you have to do is read back and act upon them.)

Have you even considered reducing the amount of time between wins? Or allowing games finished against other players to reduce your winstreak penalty?

For instance, if I have six consecutive wins against a player, I gain 0 elo - even if I gained those wins over 3 weeks and with 30 other games in between. It should be obvious that if someone plays a significant number of games between rematches, they aren't elo grinding the person they have a winstreak against.

Please walk back this system or at least put more reasonable requirements in place.

Let me reflect upon this a bit. Reducing the cutoff time for win streaks, or letting games against other players reduce the penalty would improve the situation, but will never set it completely right. That is why I suggested a different approach: K factor reduction for recent opponents regardless of any win streaks, just based on the number of games played in a given time window. For cheaters who want to power level, it still has the same effect. The main difference for honest players (compared to regular ELO) is that the stakes would be smaller in some matchups, but it would still remain fair.

[miklomike]

The details of the K factor reduction can be essentially the same as for the current win streak penalty, e.g. 3% after 1 game, 7% after 2 games etc., to 100% after 6 games. (Personally, I still don't like a 100% reduction, but in this setting, I could live with that.) The cutoff time for the games count can also remain at 1 week.

Let me call out to other players: do you find this implementation acceptable?

I don't find any solution with a 100% reduction fair. I play a number of small player pool games, and a lot of luck based games. In each of these scenarios getting to the top REQUIRES a streak, and so a full reduction is unfair. Again I think any reduction is unfair, as your ELO grows apart you will already earn less for each win.

This is especially true in luck based games, where getting to the top is not skill but "wow look at the lucky streak they must have gotten!". No one should be punished for being lucky in a luck based game, especially if you happen to face the same opponent repeatedly in real time arena, or in daily tournaments, where you cannot control your opponent. In these situations, even introducing a reset of playing against other players may not help because you might not be able to play against another player through no fault of your own. So another reason why IF any penalty is kept, it should not apply to Arena or tournaments.

[GeoPaladin]

Have you even considered reducing the amount of time between wins? Or allowing games finished against other players to reduce your winstreak penalty?

For instance, if I have six consecutive wins against a player, I gain 0 elo - even if I gained those wins over 3 weeks and with 30 other games in between. It should be obvious that if someone plays a significant number of games between rematches, they aren't elo grinding the person they have a winstreak against.

Please walk back this system or at least put more reasonable requirements in place.

Let me reflect upon this a bit. Reducing the cutoff time for win streaks, or letting games against other players reduce the penalty would improve the situation, but will never set it completely right. That is why I suggested a different approach: K factor reduction for recent opponents regardless of any win streaks, just based on the number of games played in a given time window. For cheaters who want to power level, it still has the same effect. The main difference for honest players (compared to regular ELO) is that the stakes would be smaller in some matchups, but it would still remain fair.

I don't see why both our suggestions couldn't be applied together. They focus on different aspects of the problem.

Yours would ensure the system is no longer so ridiculously unfair. My suggestion was aimed at mitigating the impact of the system on legitimate players, as even a reduced K factor would still be quite tedious to deal with, let alone the current system.

[h_illes]

I don't find any solution with a 100% reduction fair. I play a number of small player pool games, and a lot of luck based games. In each of these scenarios getting to the top REQUIRES a streak, and so a full reduction is unfair. Again I think any reduction is unfair, as your ELO grows apart you will already earn less for each win.

I don't like a 100% K factor either, I just thought that since the stated intention of this whole win streak penalty thing is against power levelling, they might want to keep a steep increase of the penalty to 100%.

[janbo00]

What is the best way to ensure my subscriptions (2) aren't renewed. I marked them as such last year and they billed my card again. I'm not renewing either again and wil dispute with my CC if I have to but would rather just not have my subscription renewed.