Request for supporters to read, know and vote, NOT here, but in the links provided.

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lioliolio
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Joined: 27 October 2018, 18:31

Request for supporters to read, know and vote, NOT here, but in the links provided.

Post by lioliolio » 18 May 2019, 23:07

If you agree that the following are serious issues that should be fixed, please vote for them
here (#3650: "END OF ROUND PHASES SHOULD NOT BE CARRIED OUT SIMULTANEOUSLY") and
here (#12521: "END-OF-ROUND PHASES ARE RENDERED NOT IN THE RIGHT ORDER DEFINED BY THE GAME RULE.") and
here (#12523: "THE EVENT-CARD PHASE DOES NOT RESPECT RIGHT ORDER AND ALSO THE CLOCK COUNTS DOWN FOR BOTH PLAYERS.").
I tend to believe that the more votes collected, the more attention will be attracted to fix these issues
(the one bug#3650 been unfixed since September 2015).
Please, read through the following lines to understand these issues and shape a complete opinion about it. Then, and only then, go
there (#3650: "END OF ROUND PHASES SHOULD NOT BE CARRIED OUT SIMULTANEOUSLY") and
there (#12521: "END-OF-ROUND PHASES ARE RENDERED NOT IN THE RIGHT ORDER DEFINED BY THE GAME RULE.") and
there (#12523: "THE EVENT-CARD PHASE DOES NOT RESPECT RIGHT ORDER AND ALSO THE CLOCK COUNTS DOWN FOR BOTH PLAYERS.")
and vote for them to be fixed.
They happen in every table created and they happen at your tables also. Watch for them and see for yourself to check them out. Here they are:

In page 16 of the rulebook of the game it says:
END OF THE ROUND
After the second player has passed (see p. 5), the current round ends. The players now have to perform the following 6 phases, one after the other, with the player who passed first beginning each one. ---this is not applied on BGA app---
1. PROJECTS..............................................................Instead, both players may play,
.............................................................................no matter who passed first,
2. SUPPLY.................................................................and the clock counts down for both.
.............................................................................This is big issue, as the player with
3. GROWTH...............................................................the less time is pushed to play first,
.............................................................................to avoid receiving the time penalty,
4. MEGALOPOLIS.........................................................losing the advantage of playing 2nd
.............................................................................and, thus, managing his prestige(if he wants),
5. STORAGE...............................................................in order to be the second player
.............................................................................to react to the EVENT CARD phase
6. PHOROS................................................................and the first player to start the next round.
.............................................................................The game can be gamed.
Ok, phases 1, 2, 4, and 5 are rendered automatically by the bga application of the game (but NOT always in the right order) and that's ok as these phases reflect the consequences of the players' actions made during the round that has just ended. (Although, phases 4 and 5 depend also on where and how much of his/her grain a player provided for his/her poleis' GROWTH in the GROWTH phase).

The critical phases are 3. GROWTH and 6. PHOROS and that's because in these phases each player must take some actions, like
where and how much of stored grain to provide for poleis' GROWTH and
how much prestige, if any, to spend in exchange for silver (1:1) as PHOROS (=taxation).

Now, because of the fact that:
* phase 3. GROWTH influences phase 4. MEGALOPOLIS which grants prestige and
* phase 6. PHOROS consumes prestige,
these two phases, GROWTH and PHOROS, have indirect effect upon the playing order of next round
i.e. who reacts first on next round's event card and who is playing first afterwards.
And that's because the playing order of next round depends totally on the prestige of the players,
as this is clearly stated in the following quote from the game's rulebook.

In page 5 of the rulebook of the game it says:
Draw 3 Project Tiles and put them, face up, onto the corresponding spaces on the game board. Afterwards, draw an Event Card of the first round (3) and place it between the two players. These actions are repeated at the beginning of every consecutive round (see p. 17).
The player with more Prestige (in case of a tie the Athenian player) now reads out the Event Card, and applies all effects relating to himself. His opponent then does the same. ---this is not applied on BGA app--- The game can be gamed.
....................
After applying the Event Card the player with less Prestige begins with his turn (in case of a tie the Spartan player).
------this is the only prestige-related order-rule which is applied correctly on BGA app---
Now, the problem is that, in the BGA app of the game, the phases 3. GROWTH, 6. PHOROS and the EVENT CARD phase do not concord with the rules. Let me explain the situation with an example.

Suppose that Sparta passes round before Athens.
........................................................................END OF ROUND PHASES.........................................................................
......................HOW IT SHOULD BE...........................................................................HOW IT IS NOW................................
Phases PROJECTS and SUPPLY ...................................................---In the BGA application of the game, (bug#12521)
are rendered automatically for both players, .................................phases PROJECTS and SUPPLY are rendered also automatically
announcing the results in the right order ......................................for both players, but the results may not come out in the right order
(Sparta first - Athens second). ...................................................(e.g. it could be Athens' results first even though Sparta passed first)

Then, in the GROWTH phase (after PROJECTS and SUPPLY) ................---In the BGA application of the game, (bug#12521 & bug#3650)
the game application should wait only for Sparta's response. ..............when in the GROWTH phase,
In the meantime Athens' clock should be paused .............................the clock counts down for both players
and restarted only upon Sparta's GROWTH phase completion. .............and Athens may even play this phase before Sparta,
On Athens' GROWTH phase completion Athens' clock stops. ................going against the rule in the 1st quote of this topic.---

Now, phases MEGALOPOLIS and STORAGE .....................................---In the BGA application of the game, (bug#12521)
are rendered automatically for both players, .................................phases MEGALOPOLIS and STORAGE are rendered also automatically
announcing the results in the right order ......................................for both players, but the results may not come out in the right order
(Sparta first - Athens second). ...................................................(e.g. it could be Athens' results first even though Sparta passed first)

After that, the clock starts counting down only for Sparta, ...............---In the BGA application of the game, (bug#12521 & bug#3650)
as we enter PHOROS phase (because Sparta passed first). .................when in the PHOROS phase,
Upon Sparta's PHOROS phase completion, .....................................the clock counts down for both players
the clock counts down only for Athens ........................................and Athens may even play this phase before Sparta,
untill Athens responds to PHOROS request. ...................................going against the rule in the 1st quote of this topic.---

Now, let's suppose that Athens did the best they could in order to have less prestige than Sparta after PHOROS phase.
Athens did that, so that Sparta reacts first to the upcoming EVENT CARD (some events give the possibility to the players to tackle their prestige amount for the last time before next round's first move) so that Athens may have the opportunity to play first in the next round.

..........................................................................EVENT CARD PHASE...........................................................................
......................HOW IT SHOULD BE...........................................................................HOW IT IS NOW................................
So, the clock starts counting down only for Sparta, .........................---In the BGA application of the game, (bug#12523)
because Sparta has more prestige points than Athens. .....................when in the EVENT CARD phase,
Upon Sparta's EVENT CARD phase completion, ................................the clock counts down for both players
the clock counts down only for Athens .........................................and Athens may even play this phase before Sparta,
untill Athens reacts to the EVENT. ..............................................going against the rule in the 2nd quote of this topic.---

Finally, the only rule, among the three mentioned above, which is applied correctly in the BGA application of the game, is the rule that refers to which player starts first, BUT, with the two previous rules being violated and influencing the prestige amount of the players, this is not of such importance.
The player with the more time in his clock, even if he was the first to pass round, has the possibility to "wait" for the other player's responses to the above phases, in order to adjust his responses in such a way that he will be the first player to start next round.
The player with the less time in his clock, even if he also "waits", finally he will be out of time first. So, to avoid having his "turn skipped" by his opponent, and, thus, losing the entire game, he will be forced to give in responding first to the above phases, ceding (by force) his legal right to play second. This is how the game can be gamed.

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