The 1st player advantage in this game..

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Dan808
Posts: 3
Joined: 07 July 2017, 18:46

The 1st player advantage in this game..

Postby Dan808 » 27 August 2017, 14:13

.. Is so extreme it breaks the game, in my opinion.

I regularly play games where I know I have lost before I've even had a turn.

Its getting very frustrating when trying to progress, when you have regular losses which are entirely out of your control.

There needs to be something to balance it out, what would people suggest?

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nandblock
Posts: 104
Joined: 23 December 2015, 02:13

Re: The 1st player advantage in this game..

Postby nandblock » 27 August 2017, 15:26

I prefer being last, because it means if you can get to 17 on your turn you win outright rather than crossing fingers your opponent can't surpass you.

Faedur
Posts: 52
Joined: 30 September 2013, 21:10

Re: The 1st player advantage in this game..

Postby Faedur » 27 August 2017, 18:06

Hello,

I think it is very suggestive to say that the first player has so advantage.
I guess it is a bonus but it really depends on the initial distribution and then all players turns are based on the random of the next builder or building card...

I agree with Dan808, it is very useful to be the last, because you (quasi) choose when the game ends. If you don't do it, you are sure that you will be able to play another turn, that's something !
It is not true if there is at least one player after you, you have to challenge the way to rush now or to wait one more turn, expecting next players to not rush.

Actually there is a huge part of random with this game and combinations available.

Regards.

Dan808
Posts: 3
Joined: 07 July 2017, 18:46

Re: The 1st player advantage in this game..

Postby Dan808 » 27 August 2017, 19:03

I respect your opinions, but having played over 1000 games I can tell you that 1st player wins 80%+ of the time. The second player has to get very lucky to have a chance of winning.

Faedur
Posts: 52
Joined: 30 September 2013, 21:10

Re: The 1st player advantage in this game..

Postby Faedur » 28 August 2017, 18:30

Dan808 wrote:I respect your opinions, but having played over 1000 games I can tell you that 1st player wins 80%+ of the time. The second player has to get very lucky to have a chance of winning.

Do you play only two players game ? Because you just refer to first and second...
I guess the first player have the opportunity to choose the best combo to start and starting is very important. But because of random with cards it could change the play at any time. For sure the more players there are the more changing it could.
I've played many games too (but not so many) and didn't notice this advantage.

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senatorhung
Posts: 252
Joined: 09 February 2012, 02:54

Re: The 1st player advantage in this game..

Postby senatorhung » 02 September 2017, 15:20

i just got my 100 games played trophy .. with only 53 wins, but that is enough to be in the top 65.

first player can definitely be advantageous if there are a couple of masters in the starting labour pool, and an efficient building for them to build with only 2 actions. however, player 2 (in a 2p game) has the advantage of ending the game immediately if they get to 17 on their turn.

in my opinion, what players need to do is to pay attention to the areas of strength of your opponent. if they have picked up 2 masters and a quad craftsman on their first turn, you are definitely behind. but if you can pick off the 3 highest coin / vp buildings from the pool (and if you are lucky with the building draw), you can force them to waste actions gathering up lower coin / vp buildings where the masters would be pricey to assign. of course, you could also end up never getting any worker combos that will allow you to build the buildings yourself .. so it's a gamble.

in games with more than 2 players .. you can't really block everyone, so you should mostly just be focused on denying the easiest vps to the person playing immediately after you. it is pretty challenging being the 4th player in a 4p game - you definitely need a bit of luck to win from that position.

a variant that might work ? each player on their first turn only gets 1 action. that would allow subsequent players to block the master + corresponding master combo that is currently heavily overpowered for p1.

another thing the BGA devs could do is track the player number of the winners of each game, and see if there is a consistent pattern, the way they did with Noir: Inspector v Killer.

Faedur
Posts: 52
Joined: 30 September 2013, 21:10

Re: The 1st player advantage in this game..

Postby Faedur » 03 September 2017, 07:22

senatorhung wrote:first player can definitely be advantageous if there are a couple of masters in the starting labour pool, and an efficient building for them to build with only 2 actions.
Regarding the decks it's a bit too conditionnal to be a strategy and so only luck prevail. I tried to play this way but masters are not so efficient if there aren't good combinations in ressources and buildings.

senatorhung wrote:in my opinion, what players need to do is to pay attention to the areas of strength of your opponent [...] so it's a gamble.
So in a 2-player-game the strategy go into prevent the opponent from playing. I really don't like this state of mind but I guess some people enjoy it as a challenge. Therefor I understand that the first player is ugely advantaged because nobody can break his play at the beginning.

senatorhung wrote:a variant that might work ? each player on their first turn only gets 1 action. that would allow subsequent players to block the master + corresponding master combo that is currently heavily overpowered for p1.
For two players why not. I think it could be nice.
I bought the game and with beginniners we use to play only once per turn. It is harder to make perfect combos but you can't break someone game and you don't wait too long for other players reflexion time.

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senatorhung
Posts: 252
Joined: 09 February 2012, 02:54

Re: The 1st player advantage in this game..

Postby senatorhung » 16 August 2018, 22:45

currently in another 4p game where i will be the runaway winner thanks to first.turn and a lucky distribution of masters / constructions:

https://en.1.boardgamearena.com/thebuil ... e=42978874

i just posted on BGG about a suggested variant: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/29791983#29791983 so i thought i'd post it here as well.

my variant suggestion would be a 'staggered start' so that the first player does not get such a huge jump on the other players.

turn1: everyone gets 1 action
turn2: everyone gets 2 actions
turn3: back to regular turns where everyone gets 3 actions

this increases the chance that the distribution of masters / constructions would not be as concentrated and would allow a bit more strategy in being able to block the perfect combos of workers / constructions that can lead to first player fait accompli.

also, i'm still hoping that BGA can add the winner placement stats to the stats summary pages: https://en.boardgamearena.com/#!players ... &game=1103

wins (first player)
wins (last player)
wins (not first or last player)

my suspicion is that those numbers will not be evenly distributed, but my variant suggestion would spread out those wins a bit more. then BGA can give those stats to Bombyx and see if the publisher would make it an official variant ;)


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