Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

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Faedur
Posts: 52
Joined: 30 September 2013, 21:10

Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by Faedur » 27 August 2017, 18:56

Hello,

I would like to open a new discuss around the game The Builders: Middle-Age (Les bâtisseurs : Moyen-Age).

I'm passing through the discuss about being first or last (see here https://fr.boardgamearena.com/#!forum/v ... 55&t=11891) and the fact that is a game using shuffled cards so luck with random have an important part...

But if you consider only the cards, costs and ressources, I think there are some lacks with arithmetics, mathematics, statistics and things like that.
I don't know the initial mind of the creator and if there're changes in the second version The Builders: Antiquity (Les bâtisseurs : Antiquité) - not available for now on BGA - but I would like to know what people think and if there is actually a real strategy to apply.

Thanks for participations !
Last edited by Faedur on 27 August 2017, 19:14, edited 1 time in total.

Faedur
Posts: 52
Joined: 30 September 2013, 21:10

Re: Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by Faedur » 27 August 2017, 19:14

First, if you count the ressources needed for all buildings, you have 65 for stone, 65 for wood, 66 for workship :arrow: knowledge and 64 for tiles. Okay it is close (but why not 65 for each ? or did I make a mistake in my sum ?) but if you count the cards without a ressource, there are 16 cards that needs no stone, 9 without wood, 10 without workship and 11 without tiles. You can see now there is less need for stone in game than other ressources. Though buildings needing stone are more demanding on it than on other ressources : the average cost in stone by building is 2,5 but aroud 2 for other ressources.
I guess there are other strange balances with building cost distribution (also with tools maybe) but I let you calculate them.:D

Second, regarding on the ressources provided by workers, there are some mismatches.
Counting the total ressources, we got 38 of each.
But we can notice that workers usefulness is not equal, nore perfects matches. For example with apprentices, the one provinding wood and knowledge has two perfect matches (tile oven lvl 1 and the shack) whereas the apprentice providing knowledge and tile have none.
To be thought and completed...
Last edited by Faedur on 31 August 2017, 19:09, edited 1 time in total.

Liallan
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Joined: 26 May 2014, 07:01

Re: Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by Liallan » 28 August 2017, 10:08

Yeah, I'm passing over the other discussion as well - for now - since I only have two games and I doubt anything I say would be taken seriously.

I'm curious how you got the card distributions? Have you actually played this enough to have seen everything?

I don't know that it's as simple as adding up numbers, but I'm far too tired to think about that right now. :)

P.S. The word is "workshop." (A place to do work. As opposed to a ship, like a boat, or to ship, like to send something. No such thing as a workship.)
But, that resource is actually knowledge. Did we end up with a translation issue there?

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N_Faker
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Re: Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by N_Faker » 28 August 2017, 18:40

There is a card list over at GameboardGeek

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ollyfish2002
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Re: Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by ollyfish2002 » 29 August 2017, 08:51

Hello
Cards Distribution is not the only difficulties for mathematics braining.
You have to take into account the number of workers (all kind) needed to finish a building.
If someone wants to calculate the different possibilities, you should arrived to this conclusion :
Masters are overpowered : many buildings can be build with 2 of them.
Apprentices are nearly useless.
Take the 16 coins-4VP buildings. Most of them can be build with 2 masters. Benefit : 6 coins in 1 turn. Get 4 of those and the game is nearly over.
Beri has proposed a variant, which seems to me more equilibrated :
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/181270 ... ts-cycling

my2p

Liallan
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Re: Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by Liallan » 30 August 2017, 10:42

N_Faker wrote:There is a card list over at GameboardGeek
Thanks.

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ollyfish2002
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Re: Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by ollyfish2002 » 30 August 2017, 11:04

I have put some numbers for the buildings with the pdf provided here.
N_Faker wrote:There is a card list over at GameboardGeek
Buildings (minimum to build with the perfect workers)
Bower and wooden shack 0 VP : 1 apprentice; cost 2c; 1 play; profit 6c and 0 vp. (6c_0VP/play)
1 VP and 6 coins : 1 laborer; cost 3c; 1 play; profit 3c and 1 VP. (3c_1VP/play)
2 VPs and 8 coins : 1 apprentice and 1 laborer; cost 5c; 2 plays; profit 5c and 2 VPs. (2.5c_1VP/play)
3 VPs and 12 coins : 2 laborers; cost 6c; 2 plays; profit 6c and 3 VPs. (3c_1.5VP/play)
3 VPs and 14 coins : 1 craftman and 1 laborer; cost 7c; 2 plays; profit 7c and 3 VPs. (3.5c_1.5VP/play)
4 VPs and 16 coins : mostly 2 craftmens ; cost 8c; 2 plays; profit 8c and 4 VPs. (4c_2VP/play)
some can be built with 1 laborer and 1 craftman; cost 7c; 2 plays; profit 9c and 4 VPs. (4.5c_2VP/play)
Farm
5 VPs and 18 coins : 2 masters for Watchtower and Chapel; cost 10c; 2 plays; profit 8c and 5VPS. (4c_2.5VP/play)
those with 4 ressources : need 3 plays: 1 master, 1 laborer and 1 apprentice: cost 10c; 3 plays; profit 8c and 5VPs. (2.66c_1.66VP/play)
Aqueduct : 6 VPs and 20c : 2 masters and 1 laborer; cost 13c; 3 plays; profit 7c and 6VPs. (2.33c_2VP/play)
Castle : 7 VPs and 20c: 2 masters, 1 craftman and 1 apprentice; cost 15c; 4 plays; profit 5c and 7 VPs. (1.25c_1.75VP/play)
Cathedral : 8 VPs and 20c: 2 masters and 2 laborers; cost 16c; 4 plays; profit 4c and 8Vps. (1c_2VP/play)

Maybe there is better combinations, you can correct me if you want.
Tools do not change the number of turns just the needed coins.

My conclusion : Best buildings are the 16 coins, watchtower and chapel, followed by 14 coins buildings.
All the 20coins buildings take too much plays.

If you use masters to build, they cost more than my values BUT they take only 2 plays for all the 2 plays buildings (2 to 5 VPs)
Hope this helps
Last edited by ollyfish2002 on 30 August 2017, 12:38, edited 1 time in total.

Liallan
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Re: Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by Liallan » 30 August 2017, 11:47

ollyfish2002 wrote: Masters are overpowered : many buildings can be build with 2 of them.
Apprentices are nearly useless.
Take the 16 coins-4VP buildings. Most of them can be build with 2 masters. Benefit : 6 coins in 1 turn. Get 4 of those and the game is nearly over.
Beri has proposed a variant, which seems to me more equilibrated :
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/181270 ... ts-cycling
I got to play this face to face this evening. (Cute little box.) The thing about the masters is you need ones that complement each other, which I did not have. Even as more came out, they weren't what I would have needed to pull this off. While I finished some with two workers (or machine), some took 3 workers. This speaks a little bit towards that first player advantage as well. I couldn't really get a good complement of workers to start - it just wasn't there.

Also, I don't think I'd want masters costing $7 cause they were sometimes a bit wasteful and even at $5 it seemed like a waste of money and I was able to be more money-efficient than that. I did mostly "medium-level" buildings and one machine. (I do like that idea of using an action to wipe the buildings. At one point we had nothing but 18-20 coin buildings and that was totally useless to me at that point.)

I did win, but the other two had never played and I don't believe being first had anything to do with it.

And while I'm not exactly at expert, there was one person posting that thinks it's fine as is, and so far, so do I, but I can't see myself getting that competitive in a filler game.

P.S. There's a new post since I wrote this... Kind of like I just said, I have a hard time getting too deeply into a filler game, but I'm also anal. The thing about that list is coming up with those "perfect workers" for those buildings.

Faedur
Posts: 52
Joined: 30 September 2013, 21:10

Re: Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by Faedur » 31 August 2017, 19:02

Liallan wrote:I'm curious how you got the card distributions? Have you actually played this enough to have seen everything?
Actually I loved this game so much that I wanted to play it with some improvements so I bought it. Then I made my own list to think on that but didn't know how to share it.
Liallan wrote: P.S. The word is "workshop." (A place to do work. As opposed to a ship, like a boat, or to ship, like to send something. No such thing as a workship.)
But, that resource is actually knowledge. Did we end up with a translation issue there?
Yes I meant about work quality skill (is workmanship better ?) and this word sounded good for me but I am afraid I am french and didn't notice that it was knowledge in english version.

Faedur
Posts: 52
Joined: 30 September 2013, 21:10

Re: Card list not so fair... mathematics braining

Post by Faedur » 31 August 2017, 19:56

ollyfish2002 wrote:[...]
Masters are overpowered : many buildings can be build with 2 of them.
[...]
My conclusion : Best buildings are the 16 coins, watchtower and chapel, followed by 14 coins buildings.
All the 20coins buildings take too much plays.
So the best strategy seems to focus on 14-16 coins buildings (although there are only 10 cards of 42 like these) with masters or craftmen.
But
Liallan wrote:The thing [...] is you need ones that complement each other, which I did not have [...]
And this is the challenge of this game indeed : to find the better combination in your team with less workers in order to cover most of building possibilities.

Then it is not so easy because half of buildings (and the better ones) need at least 3 in one ressource and there are only 12 workers wich produce a ressource thrice (4 craftmen and the 8 masters). And we can notice that not all combination of ressources are available with, for example there is no master producing stone and knowledge nor master producing wood and tile. Only laborers and apprentices offer all combinations possibility.

At the end, is it only a matter of luck to be able to pick the good card at the right moment (so the importance of first player who have more luck combinations) ? Or a matter of reflexion to do that ?

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