Playability turn-based

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DrKarotte
Posts: 141
Joined: 22 September 2015, 23:42

Playability turn-based

Postby DrKarotte » 20 April 2018, 14:11

Does anyone have problems watching a replay of the last moves in this (or in other) game(s)?

As there is no information in the Game Log about the cards played it is impossible to make a good move without this function. I understand that this is done on purpose to avoid people cheating (there has been a suggestion in the bugs forum) and when playing live that's ok.

It would suffice to show at least the last card the opponents have taken. I cannot imagine that the publisher would make an objection against that.

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RicardoRix
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Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: Playability turn-based

Postby RicardoRix » 20 April 2018, 21:03

yes, couldn't agree more.

The log is the ideal place to catch up on previous moves when playing turn-based games. I have also noticed that quite often in different games that the text log is particularly vague. 'Opponent played a piece' - not very helpful.

How can people cheat exactly?

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Jest Phulin
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Joined: 08 July 2013, 21:50

Re: Playability turn-based

Postby Jest Phulin » 21 April 2018, 00:13

RicardoRix wrote:How can people cheat exactly?


This is a game of hidden information that was once public. While nobody is allowed to see the cards you currently have in your hand, they saw each time that you took a card and what it was. In a live game, it is up to the opponent to remember this information. If it was in the log, they would simply be able to scroll through the log to determine the information. I have heard of situations in Hearts where people have gone through the log to determine the value of cards remaining in opponent's hands.
This information is valuable to determine what your next play might be. For example, if you have 6 of one card and 1 of another, you are much more likely to make a move that increases the value of the first cards.
[[Note -- it has been a while since I've played this game, my examples of number of cards may not be accurate.]]
I know Jaipur gets around this problem by only listing what cards were taken on the last move, but I'm not sure if that solution can extend to a game with more than two players.

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RicardoRix
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Re: Playability turn-based

Postby RicardoRix » 21 April 2018, 12:29

that's not cheating.

there is nothing stopping you writing down everything that ever happens. There is even a 'notes' function that you could use.

In the veggie garden game that's exactly what I do to keep track of what my opponent has. How else with 40+ turn based games going are you expected to compete properly in a game.

If it's public knowledge, then it's public knowledge and should be logged to be useful to actually play the game.

'Played a card' is just useless - may as well not bother.

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Jest Phulin
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Re: Playability turn-based

Postby Jest Phulin » 21 April 2018, 15:48

Agreed, it is not cheating in the technical sense of breaking an established rule. However, if someone played live face-to-face and wrote down every move, they would probably be accused of cheating... ;)
Of course, this situation is one of the reasons the note system was implemented. So, yes, having something different would probably be an improvement.

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RicardoRix
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Re: Playability turn-based

Postby RicardoRix » 21 April 2018, 18:27

The real life scenario is not really relevant, we're talking about BGA.
I believe in chess games, that players had to write down every move in order to stop the possibility of cheating.

There are much worse possible cheat methods that are all possible, but the point is that the chat log and the possibility of cheating by using it is near irrelevant compared to the great benefit it can give to players trying to play.

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DrKarotte
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Re: Playability turn-based

Postby DrKarotte » 21 April 2018, 22:03

RicardoRix wrote:there is nothing stopping you writing down everything that ever happens. There is even a 'notes' function that you could use.


That is exactly what I forgot to write. If someone really wants to cheat he will find a way. We have a rather weak cheat protection against a much greater loss of playability here. I even don't think that too many peaople would really check the log all the time in live games. I am convinced that most players here want to play games and respect certain rules.

In my opinion for all games like Veggie garden, Hearts and so on it would be best to handle the game log like in Jaipur: Give most detailed information about the last moves, but hide the previous moves (so it would become impossible to have a replay, too).


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