Pythia v1.3 - visual aid helper for 7 Wonders BGA

[Tadachini]

Pythia v0.6 released!

New features

• Pythia settings menu. Now you can enable and disable certain features of your Pythia. If you don't like seeing other player cards - just hit disable and they will be gone from the interface, while other Pythia functions will keep working as before.

[Mune]

I love Pythia and I find it to be a really great tool for learning.

From my humble opinion, it has greatly deepened my understanding of 7W and helped me find new line of plays that I haven't thought of before. I love 7W and I'd love that people get better at it too. The change from 3p to 4p in arena recently really shakes up the meta and with so many things to keep track of, a tool like this is like a calm oasis to me. It helps me make better decisions, with a really nice UI to boot.

As for the "memorization is part of the skillset" people claiming here, I find it rather funny, and in fact detrimental to the game growth. You can already check for old hands by pressing the "Replay from this move", or just printscreen the hand if you don't bother with remembering the cards. I don't think playing on bga will ever be the same as playing in real life, where you can enforce that players cannot use any helping tools. It's the digital age people, and modern problems require modern solutions. Pythia has a really nice UI, and it works beautifully, why not utilise it as a learning tool?

As for "unfair" claims, people who don't use it vs. people who do.. I don't think anyone care about ranking on bga THAT much. I suspect that people who do, already have a fun time with Pythia. Pythia just presents information to you very nicely and saves you all the hassle. I'm so glad that the author publish it publicly instead of keeping it to himself to be the best 7W player on bga! Damn!

Really though, just install it. It's like 2-3 clicks. The adversity to new technology really baffled me. The author said to me during our chat (I was thanking him for Pythia) that people dislike it so much. I think people regard it as a tool for cheating, not a tool for LEARNING. I challenge you to cheat with Pythia, and be the best player in arena. Can you?

[Mune]

I can also say 1 aspect of Pythia that really helps new player is the ability to show post-war scores of all players.

Playing 7W on bga has already differed from playing 7W in real life in that you can see bga automatically calculate the current scores of all players. It helps you see the situation somewhat. New players often though rely on that score too much in their decision making, and seasoned player know that war can change everything. That's why showing post-war score is a quality-of-life option and makes the scoring less misleading for new players.

[Wonderful Plays]

So Mune you are just happy cheater that the cheats are working. Yeah a lot of people using aimbot in FPS games are like that. I dare you to uninstall it and play it on an even level.

As for installing it and being the best player, I'm fine challenging the best without it.

[6element]

It is an interesting point that BGA implementation already provides running score, cost assessment, and estimated guild points, as well as a list of all free chains and card costs. Arguably, it is already too much, and makes the game different from real-life original.

But it is available for everybody and everybody knows it is available. It is fair.

I think, if P* would "introduce itself" in the chat channel, it'd be possible to make an argument that "opponents were aware and didn't mind it, so it is Ok to use on a particular table". Still, IMHO ELO / Arena point gained from such tables should be nullified, but at least it can be seen as trying to be somewhat fair for this particular opponents (not for other Arena participants).

But using P* secretly from opponents is clearly and undeniably - cheating. Because it provides unfair advantage.

It is as simple as - you cannot play well, but with it you appear to "play better". Well, you don't play better. You cheat. What is the point?

[ZeroGravity0]

It is an interesting point that BGA implementation already provides running score, cost assessment, and estimated guild points, as well as a list of all free chains and card costs. Arguably, it is already too much, and makes the game different from real-life original.

But it is available for everybody and everybody knows it is available. It is fair.

I think, if P* would "introduce itself" in the chat channel, it'd be possible to make an argument that "opponents were aware and didn't mind it, so it is Ok to use on a particular table". Still, IMHO ELO / Arena point gained from such tables should be nullified, but at least it can be seen as trying to be somewhat fair for this particular opponents (not for other Arena participants).

But using P* secretly from opponents is clearly and undeniably - cheating. Because it provides unfair advantage.

It is as simple as - you cannot play well, but with it you appear to "play better". Well, you don't play better. You cheat. What is the point?

I really agree to what 6element told:

I think that Pythia can be helpful for those who are in the learning curve, cuz it helps hone skills like guessing what cards would come to me again, calculating the scores after conflicts, etc. However, it should not be used in competitive modes and those who are already used to core skills.

Here're my thoughts.
1) For games that is intended to have some tutorials, such as training modes, I would not argue that everyone can freely use the Pythia to learn about the game.
2) Once they are used to core skills, they should compete with other players while staying on the same page.
3) If one player utilizes Pythia while others don't the one using that can be assumed as a cheater -- cuz people cannot memorize all things, so they cannot guess what cards they would get after one circulation (especially in case of 3p 4p Arena). I think that Pythia also enables ones can guess unseen cards given the data seen in the screen.
4) The original intention of "competitive" games should be done fair -- having unbiased advantage should not be adopted in such games.

Therefore, I would argue that Pythia-mode-games should be divided into another category out of competitive games to earn either ELO or Arena scores. I hope that BGA admins answer to this thread and implement some rules to make this platform transparent.

Thanks!

[augustjologs]

I find it to be a really great tool for learning.

What could you possibly learn from Pythia that you haven't learned yet in your 2,000+ 7W games? All of these 'learning tool' arguments for Pythia are flimsy. Beginners and new players don't care about what other players are holding and what's yet to come -- these are advanced skills. They are just trying to figure out which of the cards they are holding is the best to pick.

You can already check for old hands by pressing the "Replay from this move", or just printscreen the hand if you don't bother with remembering the cards. I don't think playing on bga will ever be the same as playing in real life, where you can enforce that players cannot use any helping tools. It's the digital age people, and modern problems require modern solutions.

Since replay and printscreen are already available, then why would you need a digital cheat? Because Pythia saves you time and effort! And that time-saving, is the cheating part. In real-time games, you don't have unlimited time, and Pythia, in effect gives you 'more time' with less effort. I play only turn-based 7W and have all the time in the world to make notes. So, does that make Pythia a welcome modern 'solution' for me? No, because it replaces the value of effort. What 'modern problems' does Pythia solve? The need to exert more effort to make better decisions? Or it effectively gives you 'more time' in real time games?

I think people regard it as a tool for cheating, not a tool for LEARNING

You try and get accustomed playing with Pythia and then play in real-life or even in BGA without Pythia. If it's a tool for 'learning' as you claim, then you would have learned something from Phythia and would do well in real-life games. But I bet you'd find the opposite: you'd feel 'crippled' and perform a lot worse. So where did the 'learning' go?

[Mune]

Yeah 6element said this very well. What's the point really?

I think people already have own ideas about Pythia. It's really now up to the admins if they have opinion on this.

Right now in games if you use Pythia I suggest that you announce it, and it's up to other players if they want to continue the game with you. I think that's the most sportsmanship way to go about it.

[Wonderful Plays]

I find it to be a really great tool for learning.

What could you possibly learn from Pythia that you haven't learned yet in your 2,000+ 7W games? All of these 'learning tool' arguments for Pythia are flimsy. Beginners and new players don't care about what other players are holding and what's yet to come -- these are advanced skills. They are just trying to figure out which of the cards they are holding is the best to pick.

You can already check for old hands by pressing the "Replay from this move", or just printscreen the hand if you don't bother with remembering the cards. I don't think playing on bga will ever be the same as playing in real life, where you can enforce that players cannot use any helping tools. It's the digital age people, and modern problems require modern solutions.

Since replay and printscreen are already available, then why would you need a digital cheat? Because Pythia saves you time and effort! And that time-saving, is the cheating part. In real-time games, you don't have unlimited time, and Pythia, in effect gives you 'more time' with less effort. I play only turn-based 7W and have all the time in the world to make notes. So, does that make Pythia a welcome modern 'solution' for me? No, because it replaces the value of effort. What 'modern problems' does Pythia solve? The need to exert more effort to make better decisions? Or it effectively gives you 'more time' in real time games?

I think people regard it as a tool for cheating, not a tool for LEARNING

You try and get accustomed playing with Pythia and then play in real-life or even in BGA without Pythia. If it's a tool for 'learning' as you claim, then you would have learned something from Phythia and would do well in real-life games. But I bet you'd find the opposite: you'd feel 'crippled' and perform a lot worse. So where did the 'learning' go?

+1

All those "learning" arguments are just "I have an advantage and I like it". Using it in any ranked game is cheating.

[sourisdudesert]

Hi

We (the admins) did not react yet because this is the first time such a thing happens.

We still didn't not decide what to do about this, and your opinions are welcome.

Here is why we are worry about this tool:

We don't understand why tool's developer did this


BGA is not open source, but we are very very open to external contributions on games. A lot of games have been developed by the community, and it happens many times that a developer asked us if it would be possible to introduce this or that on an existing game. As far as I remembered, we said yes in 95% of the case.

So the question is: if this is really an improvement for 7 Wonders on BGA, why the developer did not ask us, so he could modify the adaptation itself, and so everyone would be able to enjoy it without installing anything? And if this is not an improvement, why should we authorize it?

The publisher/designer may disapprove this.

The publisher and designer approved the existing 7 Wonders adaptation. What if they decide that 7W + Pythia extension is not a correct implementation of their game, and threaten BGA to remove the authorization to have the game here?


For now, these are only the questions we are asking. As said, we didn't take any decision yet.

UPDATE: our general guideline on BGA is "no computer help". This guideline is here to ensure that the feeling you have when playing a board game on BGA is close than the feeling you would have with the real board game. On some situations (including in 7 Wonders), we are breaking this guidelines for UX or any other practical reason, but we always try to keep the spirit of this guideline. Typically, we allow the computer to compute the cost of a card in 7 Wonders, but we do not allow the computer to compute the best move when playing Chess (something that would have been technically possible).

UPDATE 2: considering the tool is a combination of several independant tool, we may decide to integrate some in the 7W adaptation if they are good (= in the spirit of the game), and not to integrate those who are not good (= not in the spirit of the game). If you have any opinion about which tool is or is not in the spirit of the game, please tell it here.

Important: this is highly probable that the next 7W release is going to break Pythia, and will probably make break your game. While we didn't take any decision about this, we highly recommend not to use it.