Bias against Mr. Jack.

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RicardoRix
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Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Bias against Mr. Jack.

Post by RicardoRix » 19 October 2020, 22:33

This game feels horribly biased against the player playing Mr. Jack.
Not only this, but some of the characters have a negative bias as well if they are chosen as Mr.Jack.

For Mr. Jack:
Best: Miss Stealthy. Being able to move 4 instead of 3 is a big advantage, and through buildings no less. So there a small chance of getting the Sargent to change the Cordon in Round1, and escape Round 2. A small trick the Detective should be able to stop.
Worst cases are Sherlock and the Constable. Sherlock because he's always going to get picked by the detective. And the same goes for the Constable given he is so useful to pick.

Mr.Jack is on the minority side.
As an example, take this scenario. In a game there were 4 characters left, and I as Mr.Jack was dark as was 1 other suspect (which I get to move for the last character in the round), the other 2 suspects were light.
So now I have to move towards Mr.Jack otherwise he will be the lone suspect - it's game over already. From 4 suspects.
Yes, if Mr.Jack was one of the other 2 then I would move towards the light.
But best case scenario, 1 suspect is eliminated, worst case, I lose the game.
You could suggest this is good play from my opponent, and it is, but this can happen quite frequently where Mr.Jack is on the wrong(minoirty) side and gives a HUGE deductive reasoning to narrow down suspects.

It's also easier to make people light- you simply move close to them. Keeping people dark is much harder to find corners you can't get to. So it would be better if Mr.Jack could only escape if it was light.

The best setup needs to be that an odd numbered round, Mr. Jack isn't present and you're still able to make him/her dark and close enough to escape. Ready for next round to escape. That's pretty hard thing to pull off. And the detective knowing this is your best strategy can quite easily see you trying to pull this off.

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CanuckEddie
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Joined: 02 August 2013, 21:27

Re: Bias against Mr. Jack.

Post by CanuckEddie » 23 October 2020, 01:10

How many times have you played the game?

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zoomboom
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Joined: 20 September 2020, 02:04

Re: Bias against Mr. Jack.

Post by zoomboom » 24 October 2020, 18:11

Seems like an A.I. could be built fairly easily to play a perfect game for either the detective or for Jack. At least more easily than a game of chess for example. ;) I wonder if anyone has attempted that, and could give a full analysis and all the math showing exact odds of Detective winning vs. Jack, when both play a perfect game.

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RicardoRix
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Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: Bias against Mr. Jack.

Post by RicardoRix » 24 October 2020, 19:17

CanuckEddie wrote:
23 October 2020, 01:10
How many times have you played the game?
I've played it 18 times. And every other game on the site in total 7200 times. I'm not sure that's relevant anyway, I'm using logical reasoning as I've pointed out.

I'm open to counter arguments, otherwise I wouldn't be posting here, but how exactly do undermining questions like 'How many times have you played the game?' help?

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Tisaac
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Joined: 26 August 2014, 21:28

Re: Bias against Mr. Jack.

Post by Tisaac » 24 October 2020, 20:07

As Jack, I'm personnally always trying to have all my suspect characters in the light, I think that how you have the most chances to win.

MoiMagnus
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Joined: 17 March 2020, 20:15

Re: Bias against Mr. Jack.

Post by MoiMagnus » 26 October 2020, 12:16

I've mostly played IRL against peoples I know, and my personal notes are:
1) Unless when playing against a beginner, shadow play is unreasonable. The possibility to put Jack in the shadow is only a threat to prevent the investigator to play too boldly, and a way to punish mistakes, but not a good plan to go with.
2) As such, against a somewhat experienced investigator, Jack's victories are turn 7/8 victories on a failed guessed from the investigator, between 2 suspects in bad games for Jack, and 3 suspects in good games for Jack.
3) This mean that while the Investigator is playing a game of logic, Jack is ultimately playing a game of bluff. The goal is that when during the last few turns, the investigator is making a 50/50 between the two remaining suspects, he chooses the wrong one. [Most satisfying wins as Jacks for me is when I make a "slightly suboptimal play" to save a "fake Jack", hence convincing my opponent that he knows who is Jack while it is in fact a red hearing.]
4) It follows that playing Jack against random stranger would probably be much less interesting. It's much more difficult to bluff if you don't get to understand the thinking pattern of your opponent. And that's even worse online where you can't observe him/her thinking.

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Lemminkainen
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Re: Bias against Mr. Jack.

Post by Lemminkainen » 17 December 2020, 19:38

Mr. Jack is an ASYMMETRICAL game. It has similar problems to other asymmetrical games although in Mr. Jack the powers between the two sides are not very different, but rather your goals.

I do find that it is harder, but more fun, to play as Jack.

The first round is critical for both players, and usually, but not always determines the outcome. The detective's job is to rule out as many characters as possible, and if they do not eliminate at least 3, and preferably 4, then the game is going to be an uphill battle. Conversely, if Jack can preserve 6 or more of the characters during the first round, they have a much better shot of winning.

And another fun aspect of the game is that both players can select characters, but they pick which ones in which order, and every move is potentially critical for either player.

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sprockitz
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Joined: 23 October 2014, 02:22

Re: Bias against Mr. Jack.

Post by sprockitz » 06 January 2021, 05:56

between very good players I estimate the Inspector will win about 65-70% of the time (which is slightly better than the 70-75% in the original version).

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