Hanabi variant

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asvasv
Posts: 2
Joined: 07 April 2016, 23:10

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby asvasv » 04 April 2017, 08:37

With proper strategies and attention (paying attention to 'negative clues' ie. not x value and not y colour, the 6 cards variant is just so much easier.


Looks like we had a bad run of decks then probably if this is the prevailing view. Small sample size.

Regarding variants (not just this one): At the two player level I'd suggest that the biggest problem is the unavoidable back-to-back discard problem, by which I mean that if we both have the same unmarked chop cards there's nothing to stop us both discarding it. Some variant that allows that to be saved would be a nice thing (as that's just being screwed over by luck rather than poor play; I personally don't enjoy it when it happens but imagine others might just think it's part of the game rather than a flaw(?)). I suppose it could be implemented in a couple of ways, for example a token that can only be used in that circumstance which can be played immediately after a turn in two player or an undo button that again can only be used in this exact situation.

Regarding the currently implemented variant: has anyone extensively experimented to get a feel for the "goldilocks number" of cards in 2 player? Why not 7 for instance? 8? How bad (or otherwise) does it become?

beri
Posts: 143
Joined: 21 March 2012, 15:20

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby beri » 04 April 2017, 14:01

asvasv wrote:Is the intention that the 2 player variant with six cards is more or less difficult? I can see thought processes that suggest to me that it should be easier than the five card version, but also reasons why it may be tougher. Having just played several games, it seemed harder, but perhaps this was just a collection of horrible decks. Any thoughts?
The intention is that it is less random, therefore the scores you achieve should be more often representative of your level (e.g. very good players should achieve high scores more consistently).

Personally I don’t find 6 cards to be way too easy. I find it to get scores to reflect more accurately my level.

asvasv wrote:Regarding variants (not just this one): At the two player level I'd suggest that the biggest problem is the unavoidable back-to-back discard problem, by which I mean that if we both have the same unmarked chop cards there's nothing to stop us both discarding it.
There’s actually a technique for that, though it may seem too clue-expensive to be worth it. After using it extensively, I think it’s worth it.
asvasv wrote:Regarding the currently implemented variant: has anyone extensively experimented to get a feel for the "goldilocks number" of cards in 2 player? Why not 7 for instance? 8? How bad (or otherwise) does it become?
I played 6 cards a few times IRL and it felt really nice in terms of minimizing randomness.
7 or 8 cards would be too easy since you could "store" too many cards IMO.
Last edited by beri on 04 April 2017, 14:07, edited 1 time in total.

Ankeszu
Posts: 46
Joined: 06 January 2014, 15:29

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby Ankeszu » 04 April 2017, 14:07

as that's just being screwed over by luck rather than poor play

Disagree. You can predict probability of such case (as qpenguin said, negative clues and attention - about cluing order and your own clue receiving perception), and you can avoid it in all cases. Though many times you need to assess the risk - is the risk worth, let's say, letting a playable to be discarded? (Without risk, it's avoidable in, idk, 90-95% cases?)

As for the unofficial variant presented, I do feel 2p version easier than standard. Easier enough to consider having different elo-scoring for that, as the only unavoidable disadvantage of 2p games was low saveability (e.g. discarding 5 as the best choice, because all 10 cards on your hands are unique). Increasing hand size would help with that, though it would change the flow and make much bigger memory troubles.

beri
Posts: 143
Joined: 21 March 2012, 15:20

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby beri » 04 April 2017, 14:09

Ankeszu wrote:I do feel 2p version easier than standard. Easier enough to consider having different elo-scoring for that

Yes of course, should 6 cards become the new standard, ELO scores would certainly be readjusted.

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ollyfish2002
Posts: 171
Joined: 29 January 2015, 09:32

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby ollyfish2002 » 05 April 2017, 07:56

What about different ELO for 2 players gamers ? i really think the game is different and some masters players at 2p don't have the same level at 3p+ and the reverse. I am completely lost at 2p (and sometimes at more too).
my2p

beri
Posts: 143
Joined: 21 March 2012, 15:20

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby beri » 05 April 2017, 11:06

I don’t think BGA are willing to have two different ELO rankings per player for one specific game.

Getting back to variants, one that occurred to me for 2-player is the ability to spend 3 clue tokens to give 2 clues at once. Feasible IRL.

hugmealot
Posts: 2
Joined: 22 May 2015, 20:04

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby hugmealot » 13 April 2017, 17:09

asvasv wrote:Regarding variants (not just this one): At the two player level I'd suggest that the biggest problem is the unavoidable back-to-back discard problem, by which I mean that if we both have the same unmarked chop cards there's nothing to stop us both discarding it.


There are several ways to improve your play to address this rather than introduce an unnecessary variant. I play a lot of 2p games and never have back to back discards when playing with someone who understands these strategies.

1. One player clues while the other discards.
2. Discard when your partner's next card cannot possibly be the same as your next discard.
3. Discard when your partner's next card will never be playable.
4. Mark safe discards.
5. Discard a known card which is safe to discard.
6. Mark different numbers in each others hand.

A lot of times, back to back discards happen in 2 ways - overly aggressive discarding and over-cluing. Sometimes you need to use a clue to mark nothing to slow things down and other times you need to hold off on cluing so that you can (hopefully) give a better clue. Often the difference between a good player and a great player is the timing of their clues.

Randomex
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 April 2016, 23:08

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby Randomex » 03 May 2017, 20:07

players are allowed 2 discards less than with a 5-card hand


Can someone please explain to me what that means?

Ankeszu
Posts: 46
Joined: 06 January 2014, 15:29

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby Ankeszu » 03 May 2017, 20:36

Deck is the same size, but there are more cards on the hands - 2 cards more - and that's 2 cards shorter deck to draw. Remembering that game end is triggered when last card in the deck is drawn, it can be said that game allows for 2 discards/plays less (though it may concern players only on the really hard decks, IMO).

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yoyote
Posts: 141
Joined: 28 August 2012, 15:46

Re: Hanabi variant

Postby yoyote » 19 May 2017, 22:55

After few 2p games played, I can tell that unofficial variant is not easier than the official one, with the hard option. The main reason is : because more dead cards are marked, trust works less, not only for those cards, but for the entire game.

Example : with 5 cards, we all know that a Y card which is not a 5, when 123y are already played, is a 4Y. With 6 cards it's not obvious, and many times either we need a second clue, either we bomb.

I think the new variant deserve a promotion as an "option", because it's not more or less interesting. That's different.


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