BGA policy on kingmaking. When we should report it?

[demiurgsage]

If you go to FAQ you may read

What is forbidden on Board Game Arena?
Kingmaking: enabling another player to win on purpose while there is a better move to make for yourself.

This definition has 2 issues.

1. You can't know if the player made a move on purpose or without it.
2. You can't know if there is a better move, you are not a computer and can't calculate the result of all possible moves in reasonable amount of time.

Some users may think that kingmaking is a rare thing on BGA. It is not. If you play games like Coloretto, Carcassonne, Legendary Inventors, and other multiplayer games with interaction between players you probably see kingmaking moves every day. You can see particularly a lot of kingmaking moves when you play with average players and beginners.

In my opinion the most popular reasons why players make kingmaking moves are

1. Player just don't think how his move affects other players and make a move because he likes this move/he doesn't see other moves/the game says he must make a move and he just makes a move no matter what.
2. Player makes a kingmaking move by mistake/by missclick.
3. Player actually knows that his move change the winner of the game but he thinks that one player deserve a win more than other player(s).
4. Some other reasons you can imagine.
5. Actually kingmaking move that was made on purpose.

Another problem lies in the field of mathematics and philosophy. Lets we have some formal criteria to define if a move is actually kingmaking. As BGA encourage players to try to reach the best place in the game we can determine a best move for a player as the one that provide the best expectation of a player's place. So lets call a kingmaking move the move that isn't the best and significantly increase the chances of another player to win. But if all moves provide the same expectation how should the player play? His decisions may affect the places of other players. Does he have a right to decide who should win?

I give you some examples from real games. In all examples I talk about 3p-games with players A, B, and C.

1. A has two options: move1 gives him an instant win; move2 gives him chances to increase score but also a significant chance to end game in 2nd place. A chooses move2 and finishes in 2nd place, player B wins the game. Should player C or player B report kingmaking?
2. All players have chances to win. A has two options. move1 guarantees a win for B but also greatly increase chances of A to end in 2nd place. move2 don't change players chances to win. A chooses move1. Should player C report kingmaking?
3. A has 90 points, B has 86 points, C has 55 points. Player C makes last move in the game. He can make move1 that gives him 3 points, or move2 that gives him 4 points and gives B 9 points. C chooses move2 that give him more points. Should player A report kingmaking?
4. A has 23 points, B has 24 points, C has 22 points. C makes last move and has two options. move1 gives him and A 3 points each and ends the game, providing C 2nd place. move2 doesn't give points anyone and also ends the game (C ends in 3rd place). C chooses move2. Should player A report kingmaking?

[sourisdudesert]

Well...

_ at first we use replay, from the point of view of kingmaker.
_ we take into account the level of the kingmaker : most often a beginner do not kingmake : he/she is learning
_ we punish only obvious and repeated kingmaking, obviously because a single kingmaking is very hard to prove (could be a misclick). And repeated = on several different games.
_ everyone must play to get the best place (ex : 2nd if not 1st).

At the end, it is very rare to punish someone for this reason, because most of the time reports does not contains enough information (ie : several tables id + moves id + complete explanations). 90% of kingmaking reports are closed for this reason, and 90% of the rest are closed because the kingmaking is not -so- obvious.

Practically, the only players who are stupid enough to make regular kingmakes are using multiple accounts, and are reported&punished for this.

[demiurgsage]

So there is no reason to report kingmaking at single table. Even if it's clear that it was a kingmaking move, user could make it by mistake/missclick. I don't know for other users but I just don't have time and wish to find another tables with such moves to report a player. It's more easier to give him a red thumb.
Also average players (and beginners) can make kingmaking moves and there is no point to report them, because it's very hard to prove that these moves were made intentionally. You just can't expect that they will play well enough.

[sourisdudesert]

Yes, red thumbs are the way to deal with most kingmakers.

For the worst kingmakers, yes it take a lot of time to write a good report, but this is needed.

[Ankeszu]

As BGA encourage players to try to reach the best place in the game we can determine a best move for a player as the one that provide the best expectation of a player's place. So lets call a kingmaking move the move that isn't the best and significantly increase the chances of another player to win.

I wonder how you can determine best moves. I.e. in Legendary Inventors, even when you see move1 gives you better chances to win (due to your and your opponents possibilities), others see it gives you a lot AND they won't behave in a way that makes this move the best move. And that makes that move not best.

For the worst kingmakers, yes it take a lot of time to write a good report, but this is needed.

The point is: if you see someone kingmaking, you most likely won't play with him again. Then if you're not fan of checking replays, there is no point for making report for that players, as "it's just single table". And imagine that many others players that played with him behave exactly the same.

[sourisdudesert]

The point is: if you see someone kingmaking, you most likely won't play with him again. Then if you're not fan of checking replays, there is no point for making report for that players, as "it's just single table". And imagine that many others players that played with him behave exactly the same.

Yep. So most of the time they get many red thumbs and finally their reputation drops down, which is fine too.

[demiurgsage]

I wonder how you can determine best moves. I.e. in Legendary Inventors, even when you see move1 gives you better chances to win (due to your and your opponents possibilities), others see it gives you a lot AND they won't behave in a way that makes this move the best move. And that makes that move not best.

I didn't write it's easy and already said that it's often not possible for human. Game theory deals with such situations. In real life you should also understand basics of human behaviour because people do not play in accordance with game theory.

[asd123321]

This principle:
everyone must play to get the best place (ex : 2nd if not 1st).


Some people don't think that. One guy griped I knocked him from first to third
so I could move up to second.