Hanabi quitting

[rosebl]

Hey people,

I'd like to talk really quick about this "Hanabi no-quitting" story. Although I really enjoy playing Hanabi cause it relaxes me lately it has been getting uncomfortable with a lot of players. It has to do with this whole "Hanabi- no quitting" "Fake ELO points" etc. Sometimes it happens cause of lack of concentration or whatever to lose some important cards or to make some major mistakes in the beginning.
I'd like to remind all that this is a virtual place, ELO means nothing and we'll never ever meet each other. That've been said, I don't see why some players attack verbally when you don't want to keep playing cause you think is a waste of time.
My Solution to that has been to offer players to "bomb" the game -the difference in losing points between bombing and finishing a bad game is really small-.
Still though, I keep getting attacked from these players cause of my high ELO, that I haven't earned it and my points aren't real or names like "a**hole" etc. And just to be clear, these names come cause of my decision to stop the game (by quitting or bomb always after chatting with the other player) just because I have a high ELO like I've mentioned and not because I personally attacked them or insulted them in any way first.
And my response to that:
It's not about ELO. It's about playing Hanabi cause of it's flow and for me bad games that always last 10-15 min. anyway are a waist of time. If you have 20 min you want to play a proper game, focused and without silly mistakes. These are not the olympics, people need to chill. I/ we are here to relax and not keep getting attacking verbally out of nothing.
If it has to be like being trapped in games cause the other player is too proud either to bomb or quit, then a lot of people will just stop playing.
And if these people still want to take it so seriously they can write a no-quit or whatever when they open their tables and play with each other.

Sincerely,
xx

[Ankeszu]

Maybe play elo off games?

I have nothing to quitters (though I don't like to play with them). As long as they quit, not abandon. Quitting makes a mark on their score - same as playing "bad game" to the end. You're right that ELO means nothing - but then we have masters that cannot into logic at all... And what is the use of table restriction then? You said by yourself, we never meet and yet we need some way of assessing other players skills. If letting only good games go to the end, that makes ELO totally useless for that purpose.

When you start a game you accept to participate it until the end. The end is not losing a vital card or anything. You agreed to play the whole game, until the site shows "the end". Whether you like it or not. Do you quit competitive games if you see you cannot win on the first place? You're not alone in the game. You're suggesting tables with description "no-quit"... "No-quit" is the thing you agree by clicking accept on ANY table. Maybe if you want tables for you, it should rather be with the description "We abandon if things go wrong"?

Not sure about your personal experience. From my experience - abandoning is usually asked by a person that made the mistake (and remember, people consider as a mistake many different things - by replaying random game of you I see that I do find some moves as mistakes that I guess you wouldn't count as mistakes). Maybe I am naive, but I want to think that staying in the game make those people learn something. Unlike abandoning and stopping thinking about the game anymore.

I totally agree that no insults should be involved - in either way: if there is a person that wants to end the game or that wants to not. If any insults were done, I think that's the case for moderators.

[Silene]

I never abandon my games due to mistakes or unlucky draw. So when someone suggests abandon, I always refuse (except for real-life-reasons). Sometimes people get angry because I want to play to the end even if it goes bad and I got insulted for that sometimes. I even once met a player who started to use up all their thinking time (down to 3 sec or so) on every turn in the attempt to annoy me because I didn't want to abandon. It's interesting for me to read that you're experiencing the same (being insulted and people getting angry) for wanting to abandon. I guess there are bad people on both sides .

My reason to not abandonning has nothing to do with ELO. It concerns the quality of my games. I want to pay attention and play carefully and I want my partners to do so as well. For me, Hanabi is an intellectual challenge. If I just want to doodle around, I choose to do something different. My impression is that people, who abandon a lot, pay less attention - like using negative information from earlier clues, checking discard pile, avoiding twin discard etc. And that makes sense - I have 2 analogies why:

1) When I start to use save & load in a PC game - I try things that might fail and lose me the game. And very soon after: I lose interest in the game. To save me from that I can't start saving & loading. The same goes with abandon in Hanabi. To keep Hanabi an exciting game for me, I need to know that I get stuck in a bad game, if I don't pay attention.

2) When a kid breaks their favourite toy and you immediately hand them a new one - they will never learn to treat their things carefully. Same thinking in Hanabi: "Hmm my card might be the same y3 that just got discarded by my partner - but hey, if it is, we can just start over so no big deal, so I risk it". I don't enjoy playing like that.

Sure, I still make very bad mistakes, even if I try hard. But as I'm used to not always reaching 30, I can still enjoy trying for 27 after losing a 3.

[Silene]

One more thought:

In my opinion playing to the end is the default "value" (regardless of ELO on/off). That is why the text box reminds you at every game start and that's also why games can only be abandonned when everybody agrees. So I think if people want to follow a different policy - they should ask for that before the game starts - or accept continuing and try their best when their proposal to abandon got refused.

I don't really care, if other people abandon their games and I don't care how high they get in ELO by that. But I don't want that in my games - so please accept to play to the end or avoid me.

[rosebl]

I think the discussion goes still into this "fake masters" orientation.
First of all, of course you start with the goal to finish the game and of course you can't quit on other games this way but there is a difference in the way that hanabi is playable where sometimes it makes sense to quit. And like I've mentioned and some of the replies also did, the goal is not to win but getting this small satisfaction of this flow that hanabi has to offer.
Get me no wrong, I'm not asking for the right to quit, but I just wanted you to pay attention on some people who act very personal. And to be more specific, I am not talking about a situation when "I" as player 1 has made a/ some mistakes or where there are 5 cards left and you'll finish with 25 points for example.
I'm talking about players who for example make stupid mistakes themselves making the game meaningless (for example discarding both 2w and on top a couple of 5s) while having almost a full deck and then attack you verbally using your ELO point as a start point and going into this whole "fake master" situation.
Another example could be that even though you decided to play in the first place, you lack of consideration and decide to stop playing while at the end of the day this shows also some respect to the other player cause you don't want to waste his time.

Furthermore and just to be clear, it's not about the points, but about your time. And I don't see why waste your time when in-between the game the other player assaults you cause of some mistake or maybe he himself is a fake master and can't play.

That's why I offer the solution of bombing just to be fair on the ELO points since it seems to matter to some people here.
Some other solution maybe? And not "don't even start playing" please.

And last but not least, I'd like to mention that these same people who put you a label under these circumstances, are the same people who refuse to play with someone with a lower ELO rating.

I just wanted to mention this as a problem that bothers me and I'm sure it bothers more people.

Sincerely,
xx

[Silene]

I'm not quite sure what you want to discuss. Is it a) verbal attacks or b) how to handle disagreement on abandoning games?

As for a)
You get attacked for wanting to abandon. I get attacked for not wanting to abandon. Others get attacked because they made a mistake or because they have a funny name. For whatever reason - it is totally not ok to attack someone verbally and if you do get attacked you should definitely report them. Sadly in online communities these days there are always people who think the annonymity allows them to be mean and insulting. The best we can do is to red-thumb and report them.

As for b)
I appreciate that you "offer" bombing and not just start bombing (as sadly many other players do). I might agree to that offer (at least it's better than abandoning) but I would prefer people to inform me before gamestart that this is an "Abandon-Game" so that I can decide not to participate. As I said before - for me it's not about the ELO either but about wanting to finish the games that I start (reasons see earlier post).

My solution for your personal situation would be the advice to set a description in your games that informs about possible abandon in case it goes bad. Or you ask your partner by chat before the game starts. I think that would reduce chances to get into a conflict because of abandon-disagreement very much.

[RobertBr]

If you are the subject of personal or abusive attacks in the comments you should report it to the site moderators.

Personally I have found a substantial minority of Hanabi players on this site to be, let's put it diplomatically and say 'taking it a touch too seriously', and as a result simply do not play that game. I keep it for casual real world play.

[yoyote]

I was thinking like you, when I didn't get as much time as I wanted to play on bga. But after many games, I understood one thing : to abandon is a way to less appreciate beautiful and smart games. I compare it to paintball : if shoots don't hurt, there is no adrenalin, it's boring.
By the way, the solution to prevent the other players that you want to leave any wasted game seems good.

[ollyfish2002]

Digging this old discussion, I would ask to put abandon in the reputation as being late or quitting a game (lowering Karma). I mean that players abandoning games get penalties like I get when I am slow in a game. It is written when you start a game, you engage to finish. It happens sometimes that things happen in real life that need us to abandon, but it is not so often compared to those that ask to abandon when the game is not going as they want in Hanabi.
My2p

[7decoeur]

Digging this old discussion, I would ask to put abandon in the reputation as being late or quitting a game (lowering Karma). I mean that players abandoning games get penalties like I get when I am slow in a game. It is written when you start a game, you engage to finish. It happens sometimes that things happen in real life that need us to abandon, but it is not so often compared to those that ask to abandon when the game is not going as they want in Hanabi.
My2p

Upvote!

I also get highly suspicious when someone fields an excuse which appears bona fide, yet seems to coincide with a game that's going south fast!