BETA: Fast turn based

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Liallan
Posts: 1221
Joined: 26 May 2014, 07:01

Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by Liallan »

Well, now I know why the time broke on some of my games, so we'll start with that. Several of my games suddenly turned into 2 days when they should be 5. My understanding is these new times are new, meaning in addition to what already exists. I accepted these games with the understanding they were 5 days (+1 day/turn), and they just changed. I was not aware of any changes and did not agree to play them that way. If people start getting overtime penalties due to this, that needs to be fixed. I took those games in good faith, and can't say I appreciate discovering after the fact that there's now only 2 days on them instead of 5, with no warning. (I've seen no announcement other than this forum post. Not everyone reads this, and I took some of those games a few days ago.)

Now back to my opinion on the concept. I agree with Gandon that I never found taking weeks (or even months) to be a drawback of turn-based, so not all of us share that opinion. I came here because turn-based was added, and I knew what to expect. I'm aware of what playing turn-based means. So to me, there's no flaw to begin with.

I see that the newest invitations for "one turn a day" are now 3 days + 1 day/turn. (Except mine are all 2.) I don't like having that change. If the idea was adding new speeds, it shouldn't affect the old speeds. I'm here most days, but sometimes things do come up, and that's why the extra time is available. I've never gotten an overtime penalty (literally, never) and this feels too much like I'm being pressured to never have anything come up in my life. For the old times (2 turns/day, 1 turn/day & 1 turn/2 days), I see no reason to change those. I would say this is the most important issue with this: changing the time on the options that already exist. For those of us who like a really relaxed turn-based, that could be a deal breaker. If some issue comes up, it's easy to wipe out 2 days, and then can be difficult to catch up.

I don't mind if other people use this - I've always been all for options. But I'm not personally interested in it. I already know it won't work. I'm on an odd schedule. I don't sleep when most Americans do. Some of my best hours are when Europeans are sleeping. I don't know - maybe Australia would work out? Right now, the one person I see using this, is putting the hours of basically afternoon through the evening. I'm never on here in the afternoon. And most of my work hours are in the evening to late night. There's no way I could keep up 8 moves during those hours - never gonna happen. Just an example of course, but making a point. I do wonder how well people will "match hours." (Even in the same time zone, people don't have the same schedule.)

So my real concern would be how many people would like this and start using it, reducing the number of games available. Sure, I could create more of my own invitations, but if lots of people know this is available, would they take invitations that are going to be dragged out over weeks? Only time will answer that question.

But in the meantime, could you return the old times to their old times?
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sourisdudesert
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Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by sourisdudesert »

Thanks for your feedback.

This thread is only about Fast Turn based. Obviously as you noticed we are experimenting a lot of things on clocks these days (also for realtime play - see the other topic). Reducing the maximum time for turn based games is also part of the experiment.

We are going to do a complete announcement at the end of the experiment, on next week. In the meantime please keep the topic here for the new Fast Turn Based mode. Thanks !
truecolors
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Joined: 30 November 2018, 02:06

Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by truecolors »

I like this option because it matches how I want to play: frequent check-ins, games that don't take weeks to complete, but not a constant need for attention. A few comments:

- One of my games (https://en.1.boardgamearena.com/racefor ... e=46825876) has occasionally been showing my opponent as -4000 something days in thinking time. I have seen it happen twice but unfortunately, not soon enough to get a screenshot before moving to the next table, and when I go back in, it shows it correctly as around -11hours in thinking time.

- It'd be nice if the games were differentiated from regular turn-based games in some way on the turn-based page other than just by words. I'm thinking something with color would help call them out for people like me, who prefer them, and other people who don't want them at all/don't understand it. Right now, it seems like a lot of my opponents are getting negative time because, I would suppose, that they didn't know what they were signing up for.

I hope to start a small tournament soon with these settings, but it makes me nervous because I worry that I will be out of time with them. :)
Liallan
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Joined: 26 May 2014, 07:01

Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by Liallan »

truecolors wrote:Right now, it seems like a lot of my opponents are getting negative time because, I would suppose, that they didn't know what they were signing up for.
It's not just because of people not knowing what they were signing up for, though I'm sure that's part of it. (And if they were your invitations that you set up this way, that very well may be the case.)

But I had already started some of mine and they were changed. The worst is a Remember When game that I took days ago, probably a week or so ago. And I know for a fact there were 5 days on everyone, and then everyone dropped to 2 days, except one person is still at 5, which seems like a bug. (Interestingly, that is someone who was not on for 2-3 days before this change was made, and that's who ends up with 5 days?) But one person couldn't be around for a couple of days and went into a negative -- that would not have happened if we still had the 5 days. Fortunately no one got antsy and booted him. But now he's still at -4 hours and that's going to be difficult to get out of. I feel badly for him, and it's not really fair.

Sorry, but I just feel like "fast turn based" should be a different, additional category, not a change to what we've already got. Some people play turn based for the sole reason that it's more relaxed, and if things come up, feeling pressured to get back here is not relaxing, especially at times when those other things are more important than games.
truecolors
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Joined: 30 November 2018, 02:06

Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by truecolors »

I am talking about games where I specifically picked fast turn based, not in progress games. I didn’t invite people but they may not have read the description of the time limit regardless.
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sourisdudesert
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Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by sourisdudesert »

@lilan: as stated earlier, the experiment on turn based clocks for existing tables / previous speed are 100% not related to new Fast Turn Based feature. Please keep this topic to talk about Fast Turn Based feature. Thanks !
truecolors
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Joined: 30 November 2018, 02:06

Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by truecolors »

Another note: I don’t think it’s possible to create fast turn-based table on mobile (or at least iPhone in Chrome). When I pick one of the fast time options, I get “Unexpected error: Invalid value for option”. I think this is because the default playing time is “Clock is not decreased outside playing hours” but when I change this, it sets it back to a normal turnbased speed and the playing time drop down disappears.
Liallan
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Joined: 26 May 2014, 07:01

Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by Liallan »

sourisdudesert wrote:@lilan: as stated earlier, the experiment on turn based clocks for existing tables / previous speed are 100% not related to new Fast Turn Based feature. Please keep this topic to talk about Fast Turn Based feature. Thanks !
What?

First, I HAVE been talking about this feature. I came here looking for something about why the speed on my games changed, and when I saw this, I originally thought it was some kind of BUG due to your beta test. Then I thought it was intentional but still part of your "fast turn based." After, isn't my games speeding up a "faster" turn based? Sorry, I'm lost.

If you are going to experiment with 300 things at the same time, expect people to get confused. When you said the first time to stick to "fast turn based," I thought you were talking to someone else, cause I thought I WAS talking about that - and then keep in mind that you have secret knowledge I'm not aware of, eh? I don't really appreciate you getting on me for being "off topic" when I don't even understand what you're talking about. This is nonsense.
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Paddles
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Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by Paddles »

sourisdudesert wrote: But the most important thing is that you can define, for each tables some Playing Hours. Playing hours is a 12 hours slot, for example "10:00 to 22:00". During Playing hours, everything is like a normal Turn-based game. In the contrary, outside Playing hours, during the "night", the clock is not decreasing. Note that you can of course play during the night if you want, but all clocks are "freezed" during this period.
...
Of course, all these times are always displayed in your local time.

Note: this new feature is also particularly appropriate for turn-based tournaments, as in a tournament you expect each match to be played in a short time.

This feature is now in BETA: please do not hesitate to post your feedback here: do you like it or not? Do you see some bugs? Do you have some suggestions?
I've found a bug (from usability at least). I've just registered for a tournament (https://en.boardgamearena.com/#!tournament?id=25149). The tournament indicates that it has "Playing hours", but the hours aren't displayed anywhere. The details I can see for the tournament are

Game maximum duration: 3 days
Game speed: Turn-based • Fixed time limit
Time alloted by player: 36h00
Playing hours: Clock is not decreased outside playing hours
ELO rating: On

Presumably the table hours are defined by the tournament creator, but I can't see them.

The problem I see with using this for tournaments is that it could introduce some unfairness and also a new avenue for cheating.
  • Suppose the tournament's Playing Hours suits me well, but matches when my opponent is normally asleep. I could make my move at the start of the Playing Hours, while the opponent is asleep and losing time on the timer - but when my opponent is awake and plays turns while I'm asleep, my timer isn't dropping. This gives me an advantage over my opponent - more thinking time, and less likely to run out of time.
  • Another scenario is if my opponent and I are both sleeping during playing hours, but two other competitors playing each other are awake during playing hours. Both of them could end up with more usable time, while my opponent and I are a bit more rushed. This wouldn't affect the win/loss numbers, but it could affect the statistics used for tiebreakers in Swiss or Round Robin tournaments.
(I don't expect this would be a big issue in a Can't Stop tournament like this example. But for games that require more moves or where time to analyse a position gives an advantage, it could make a big difference. Chess and Carcasonne are two examples that come to mind, but there would be others.)

I've never agreed with the argument that those of us in timezones far from the bulk of players are inherently disadvantaged on the clock in tournaments, but I think adding in a director-specified time-period where the clock doesn't run changes that. At minimum, it would be helpful to be able to see what the Playing Hours are so that we can make a sensible decision about whether to sign up for a particular tournament, just like we would on a non-tournament game with playing hours.
truecolors
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Joined: 30 November 2018, 02:06

Re: BETA: Fast turn based

Post by truecolors »

Paddles wrote:
I've found a bug (from usability at least). I've just registered for a tournament (https://en.boardgamearena.com/#!tournament?id=25149). The tournament indicates that it has "Playing hours", but the hours aren't displayed anywhere. The details I can see for the tournament are

Game maximum duration: 3 days
Game speed: Turn-based • Fixed time limit
Time alloted by player: 36h00
Playing hours: Clock is not decreased outside playing hours
ELO rating: On
Based on my own testing by creating a tournament, this means that playing hours are actually 24/7. The tournament I created here shows actual playing hours: https://en.boardgamearena.com/#!tournament?id=25205. I agree that this is super confusing. The default for playing hours should be "24/7" and then there should be a note in parentheses or something that says (Clock is not decreased outside playing hours) outside of the drop down.
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