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If other games like Hanabi can have an unofficial variant, it seems like Saboteur could also.

I don't want to let this discussion fade away because this game is great except this one broken issue.

Hello Saboteur fans!

I discussed with the designer Frederic Moyersoen and he made me aware of an official "tournament rules" variant created for the first Saboteur World Championship in 2016.

With this variant, there is no extra role card that can be left out, so it's relevant to this discussion

This "Tournament rules" variant is now available on BGA. You can dig for the announcement and more info about it here: https://boardgamearena.com/#!forum/view ... 48&t=13163

(also, I moved this thread in the Saboteur forum where it should have been created in the first place )

I am glad this thread was noticed. It's nice to know we were heard. Unfortunately, the tournament rules are not what we wanted, nor will they be popular.

The fun we get from this game is deducing roles and working as a team...this cannot happen with selfish dwarfs. Their role cannot be deduced and they certainly are not a team.

The expert players on this site want to play optimally...with the tournament rules each player plays sub-optimally everyplay until the end ...then hope and luck take over.

For the saboteur, they are always 2 vs 5 now (worse than before) which means they must hide until the last couple plays or have tools broken immediately for the rest of the round, as all 5 diggers will still break a sab.

This is not what we were hoping for at all.

I second Wreckage's comments. Introducing the selfish dwarf from Sab 2 into Sab 1 makes it a different game. It creates frustration and resentment against the selfish dwarves and destroys the sense of common purpose and teamwork that is such an integral part of this version. That's not what we want. We simply want regular Sab 1 with an opportunity to toggle control an unofficial variant that would allow us to have a fairer balance of sabs/diggers. The best option would probably be that the toggle dramatically increases the % chance that you will end up with 3 sabs instead of 2 (in a 7 player game, and similar for games with other numbers of players); alternatively, the toggle could automatically set the game to the max number of sabs for the number of players (ie, always 3 sabs in a 7 player game). As Sy Ryder pointed out above, Hanabi already has an unofficial variant--why can't Sab?

And this is an aside, but I can't imagine how the tournament rules ever worked in an 8-player game: 2 sabs vs 6 diggers is completely lopsided and would make for 3 miserable, boring rounds. It's bad enough when it's 2 vs 5. Yeesh!

I do very much appreciate BGA's willingness to consider players' input on this topic as demonstrated by introducing the new tournament rules variant. The fact that we were heard gives me a huge sense of respect and appreciation for this community and the developers. That being said, I hope that BGA will introduce a variant that responds to the real request, not something we never asked for.

I agree with Wreckage and Cricket. Adding selfish dwarves really makes it a different game entirely, and not one I enjoy playing.

I always thought a better role than selfish dwarf would've been coal miner. A dwarf that wins if both coals are opened. At least it wouldn't be another role with the exact same goal.

Sy Ryder wrote:If other games like Hanabi can have an unofficial variant, it seems like Saboteur could also.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11437&p=38556&hilit=hanabi#p36740

This 'unofficial' variant had publisher and game designer backing.

"This 'unofficial' variant had publisher and game designer backing."

Right, so why not for Sabotuer?

Sy Ryder wrote:Right, so why not for Sabotuer?

Because whoever has the rights to it hasn't given their approval.