5 Player Arena is way too loose and routine

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SportsClown
Posts: 6
Joined: 06 February 2021, 22:42

5 Player Arena is way too loose and routine

Post by SportsClown »

First, I am not complaining, because I am doing poorly - in fact, with 5 players I made the top 10 in the record amount of games, but I am not enjoying the game nearly as much as with 4 players. The problem is that the second age, which is supposed to be the heart of the game is way too loose:

1) Resources are way too abundant in the second age. Yes, with 3 players resources are way too tight, but in 4 players there are some truly intriguing decisions about whether to, say, win a military conflict or be shut down from the loom or water. Furthermore, there are really no strategic hides, because both brown AND gray resources are abundant, so it is almost impossible to shut down any of them - in 4 players, you can make powerful resource blocks, especially as Olympia or Alexandria.

2) No tough decisions about the military. Usually the most tactical decision in the second age is how much military to play - you want to play enough to win, but not too much to sacrifice the resources, points, and stages. In 5 players, you do not have to think about it - if you will overplay on the military, you will be compensated with Ludus. In that sense, the game is very similar to 3 players, where the second age military is the key. However, in 3 players you face a clear resource trade-off - do you play military or take necessary resources. In 5 players the trade-off is minimal, as you just take the military and due to the abundance of the resources you collect them later.

I think Arena should always be 4 players - it is clearly has the most variety of tactical decisions making the game the least mechanical. In 5 players it is really difficult to finish last (I personally seldom finish last even dead drunk): you decide in the beginning what is your strategy and then you mechanically implement it - yes, you are not guaranteed to win, as the card order always matters, but you will essentially never finish last if your plan is even half-sensible, because due to the availability of resources you will always be able to implement it - and remember that avoiding last places, not winning, is really what drives you to the top of Arena. With 4 players - the second age is really the centerpiece of the game with all the tactical decisions, with 5 players the interest is really gone after you made your plan at the beginning of the game - the rest is just a routine.
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999IF
Posts: 5
Joined: 30 July 2021, 14:40

Re: 5 Player Arena is way too loose and routine

Post by 999IF »

True!
Furthermore the waiting time becomes longer and it also increases the likelihood that one in five players will not start at all...
The "shedule" seems to be 4-3-4-5 (in a year with 4 seasons) - why not change that?!
7W is best to play with 4 players.
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Wonderful Plays
Posts: 247
Joined: 20 September 2018, 13:06

Re: 5 Player Arena is way too loose and routine

Post by Wonderful Plays »

I disagree. Current system is a compromise for what people generally want to play. All time 4 player seasons would be really boring IMO.

There are plenty of decisions and considerations in 5P that are unique for that player count.
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frogstar_A
Posts: 371
Joined: 30 April 2020, 00:41

Re: 5 Player Arena is way too loose and routine

Post by frogstar_A »

I disagree - I enjoy 3 or 5 players more than 4.

I also disagree that there are no tactical decisions to make - the decisions are different when you don’t see packs twice but that doesn’t mean there are none or that you can just blindly follow a plan from Age 1. You still need to watch your opponents and the cards.

4-3-4-5 seems a good balance to me
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Patrick of the Isles
Posts: 107
Joined: 30 August 2020, 13:20

Re: 5 Player Arena is way too loose and routine

Post by Patrick of the Isles »

SportsClown wrote: 24 October 2021, 19:09 I think Arena should always be 4 players - it is clearly has the most variety of tactical decisions making the game the least mechanical.
I may be biased, but my sense is that a majority of players agree with you that 4 players is the correct arena setting. However, there were a few players in these forums who pushed pretty hard for this five player setting, and they seem to have gotten their way this season, so we will have to see what happens from here.
Last edited by Patrick of the Isles on 15 November 2021, 02:51, edited 2 times in total.
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frogstar_A
Posts: 371
Joined: 30 April 2020, 00:41

Re: 5 Player Arena is way too loose and routine

Post by frogstar_A »

Patrick of the Isles wrote: 08 November 2021, 17:16
SportsClown wrote: 24 October 2021, 19:09 I think Arena should always be 4 players - it is clearly has the most variety of tactical decisions making the game the least mechanical.
The vast majority of players agree with you that 4 players is the correct arena setting, and that is backed up by play count data. However, there is a vocal minority who agitated for this five player setting, and so we are all suffering the consequences of giving in to their demands.
But there is no play count data for 5 person arena is there - this is the first one? So once this season is over we will see.
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Spenserq
Posts: 1
Joined: 10 July 2018, 04:39

Re: 5 Player Arena is way too loose and routine

Post by Spenserq »

I dislike 4-player Arena, and much prefer either 3 or 5.

The basic reason is that 4-player is way too dependent on what the player directly opposite you does. For instance, if the player opposite is going for only green, or otherwise refuses to play military for whatever reason (and there are those players out there), then you are stuck fighting military battles on both sides against players who only have to fight battles on one side. Yes, you could choose to not play military as well, but your Board is likely not suited to do so, particularly if the opposite player is already playing greens. So, predictably, your neighbors will finish 1-2 (unless they totally fail to keep green under wraps, in which case they will finish 2-3, and you will finish last).

I've seen this happen so, so many times, and it's just arbitrary. There is nothing comparable in 3 or 5 player.
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Wonderful Plays
Posts: 247
Joined: 20 September 2018, 13:06

Re: 5 Player Arena is way too loose and routine

Post by Wonderful Plays »

I think all of them have pros and cons:
3 Player:
+ every hand twice, possibility to play for interesting resource denials
- if you are naturally put into Red vs Green, the 3rd guy has to really know the matchup if he goes just red, he screws the red guy, if he just go green he screws the green guy


4 Player:
+ You can reliably get 2browns in Age2, very balanced pool of cards
- What Spenserq said - opposite player can be hit or miss

5 Player:
+ Interesting dynamic with grays Age1, Ludus, positional red play, Olympia B is finally great
- if you are sandwiched between reds and can't play green or just not next to any green it's hard to get P1

I would even say 6 player have some advantage (1 dual brown per player creating very interesting resource bases), but it can be too random with spread of cards. 7 player is just a mess and shouldn't even be on the box IMO.
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