Simulating rotation, what do you think?

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anotherFlav
Posts: 25
Joined: 28 July 2016, 22:57

Simulating rotation, what do you think?

Post by anotherFlav »

Hi DT players!

I recently had a couple of DT games on BGA and I really like this adaptation of the physical boardgame. Thanks for the amazing job!

I played that game physically many years ago and I remembered 2 things:
1. the action cards and combat cards are supposed to be hidden after being played. More precisely only the last played action card is visible. So players should remember what have been played so far. I'm not a big fan of that particular rule because I personally found more interesting that DT rely on player's strategy/tactics capability instead of memory. Anyway, for an online and asynchronous version of the game, I think the developer made the right choice to display remaining player cards. First, players could take notes of played card so far and secondly they may have more difficulties to remember everything as async games could last many days.

2. you cannot undo your tiles rotations. So even if you realized you made a mistake because of something you missed ("oops, I missed that wall blocking the way"), you cannot rollback your move. And that's how it's implemented on BGA. But I was wondering if the same reasoning from the first point apply here. As player could theoretically use the async play to there advantage to take a screenshot, rotate the image, and test everything out I think there's no point to this particular rule. Some may point out that it's cheating because your spacial representation of the maze is part of the gameplay and experienced players should be better to resolve this puzzling. But the thing is, on a physical board you cannot use tooling at your advantage, but on BGA you can.

So now the truth is... I do cheat on DT 🙊 (for those who consider doing this as cheating of course).
I actually did something better than a screenshot because I looked at the board rendering and I made a small script that rotate tiles of the board on demand (just simulating by tweaking the rendering, not rotating the tiles for real).

Here is my actual solution: https://gist.github.com/FlavienBusseuil ... 45137f6f64

And now I'm curious, what do you think? Do you consider doing this as cheating? Breaking part of the gameplay? Denature the game?

N'hésitez pas à répondre en Français :)
T72on1
Posts: 674
Joined: 09 October 2019, 12:18

Re: Simulating rotation, what do you think?

Post by T72on1 »

I guess it is not cheating theoretically. At least not in turn based games. Then again I think it is a core part of the game to visualise the outcome of the rotation and then decide. So I would definitely not use it.
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RicardoRix
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Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: Simulating rotation, what do you think?

Post by RicardoRix »

If you did this in real-life would you consider it cheating?

If you want this ability then you should ask the developer to add it. A fair game is where ALL players have the same tools.
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anotherFlav
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Joined: 28 July 2016, 22:57

Re: Simulating rotation, what do you think?

Post by anotherFlav »

Two answers and two different positions. Loving it :D

And I kind of agree with both.
In real life, I would have ask with my partner to allow such ability to test rotations for both players. Without a common agreement or for example in a real-life tournament, I would have stick to the rule.

RicardoRix: I actually made this post with a link to my solution in the exact purpose of making this fair ;) . I could have kept this secret for myself but I exposed this in order to demonstrate that it is quite easy to achieve (you probably played against players that used tooling without knowing it).

But I agree, the best would be to have this directly integrated to the game (any dev of DT here? :D).
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tchobello
Posts: 525
Joined: 18 March 2012, 13:19

Re: Simulating rotation, what do you think?

Post by tchobello »

hi, DT developer here...

I know players are more and more asking for undo stuff.
Feel free to use your cheating tools.

Let's make things clear here.
I've added lots of warnings in the implementation to avoid immediate deaths.
I'm more into removing them rather than adding assistance, suiting Chris Boelinger state of mind : assume your mistakes and keep smiling.

Pour nos amis qui ne parlent que français...
La position de Chris est assez claire sur DT : on évite l'assistanat.
DT est méchant : assumez vos erreurs avec le sourire.
J'hésite d'ailleurs à retirer toutes les aides actuelles sur les morts immédiates.
La prochaine fois, on va me demander d'annuler un combat parce qu'on a mal compté ?
C'est devenu une sale manie de demander de mettre des Undo dans tous les jeux.
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sly0762
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Joined: 29 March 2020, 01:48

Re: Simulating rotation, what do you think?

Post by sly0762 »

Peut être qu'on peut le proposer comme une option, très utile avec les débutants.
Perso au début je copier/coller le plateau jeu dans photoshop pour ensuite faire tourner les salles et visualiser.
Maintenant je ne le fais plus car j'arrive mieux à visualiser avec l'expérience (ce qui ne m'empêche pas, par précipitation, de faire encore des erreurs -mais elles font partie du jeu).

Faire tourner les salles en partie d'initiation et ne pas le proposer en tournoi ou en mode arène. Ca peut être un bon compromis.
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anotherFlav
Posts: 25
Joined: 28 July 2016, 22:57

Re: Simulating rotation, what do you think?

Post by anotherFlav »

Thanks tchobello for your feedback. And again, thank you for the amazing work you did on DT. 8-)

Very cool to have Chris position on that too.
I think if that's the spirit of the game so we should keep it as the creator designed it by default.

Après je rejoins aussi sly0762 sur le fait que pour des nouveaux joueur ça peut être un exercice assez déroutant et dans le jeu physique on peut ajouter des handicapes ou s'entendre avec son adversaire pour pallier à la différence de niveau entre les joueurs. Et de manière générale, la version en ligne de Dungeon Twister présente par différents aspects une nouvelle façon d'appréhender le jeu.

Mais je te rassure tchobello. J'ouvre ici une question de manière très naïve et mon but n'est pas de remettre en cause l'implémentation qui est faite sur BGA. Si je fais tout ça, c'est que j'aime me lancer des défis, que je suis curieux et que j'avais envie d'avoir le point de vu des autres sur leur façon d'appréhender une partie de DT. D'avantage comme un puzzle ou une partie d'échec. Et aucune réponse n'est mauvaise ;)
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tchobello
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Joined: 18 March 2012, 13:19

Re: Simulating rotation, what do you think?

Post by tchobello »

sly0762 wrote: 30 November 2021, 08:47 Peut être qu'on peut le proposer comme une option, très utile avec les débutants.
Perso au début je copier/coller le plateau jeu dans photoshop pour ensuite faire tourner les salles et visualiser.
Maintenant je ne le fais plus car j'arrive mieux à visualiser avec l'expérience (ce qui ne m'empêche pas, par précipitation, de faire encore des erreurs -mais elles font partie du jeu).

Faire tourner les salles en partie d'initiation et ne pas le proposer en tournoi ou en mode arène. Ca peut être un bon compromis.
La rotation des salles, leur visualisation, c'est LA spécificité de Dungeon Twister.
Si tu enlèves ça, c'est comme si tu proposais de faire les 10 premières leçons de conduite en BA.
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