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Ze Monstah
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Post by Ze Monstah »

:idea:
Last edited by Ze Monstah on 14 May 2022, 12:50, edited 2 times in total.
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CB Droege
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Re: Kingmaking/helping another player

Post by CB Droege »

Kingmaking is when you do it intentionally in order to cheat for someone else.

Players are not perfect gaming machines that always make the most ideal move every time. Just letting someone else get more points due to inexperience, inattention, or even apathy is not kingmaking, it's just part of gaming sometimes. You may not like it, but it's not cheating, and there is really nothing to be done about it.

Even if it was intentional kingmaking, it's really hard to prove, and only can be shown, and thus punished, if it's a consistent behavior.
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Ze Monstah
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Re: Kingmaking/helping another player

Post by Ze Monstah »

:idea:
Last edited by Ze Monstah on 08 April 2022, 09:16, edited 1 time in total.
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donkeykong66
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Re: Kingmaking/helping another player

Post by donkeykong66 »

This is an unfortunate circumstance where a single decision by a player by definition will heavily influence the final result. If the player decides to starve the player, this player can claim that it is kingmaking by making him third and promoting the other players up to 1st and 2nd. And if he decides to not starve him, you and the player currently in 2nd can make the argument for kingmaking like you did.

I think situations like this, where the final rank of a certain player is determined, but one single action determines the ranking of the other players, can never be considered kingmaking, as the player is forced to make an almost impossible decision. To me kingmaking requires either (1) multiple moves that clearly benefit a single player or (2) making a move that worsens their own position to strengthen another player's.

Regarding starving players at the last inn in Tokaido, I personally have the following stance "If it doesn't matter for my personal ranking, I will ALWAYS starve", simply because it makes it easier for me to make such decisions. If anyone asks me why I starved them, I will be able to answer "if it doesn't matter for me I will always starve".

I think due to the nature of the game, the closeness of the game, and the importance of those final 6 points, any Tokaido player will be encountering this situation where a decision to starve or not to starve swings the final result from one player to another. If someone plays enough games, they should be on either side of the decision reasonably often. Sometimes you benefit from your opponent being starved, or you not being starved, and sometimes you will lose a position because you are starved, or because your opponent isn't starved. In my opinion this is simply part of the game.
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Ze Monstah
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Re: Kingmaking/helping another player

Post by Ze Monstah »

:idea:
Last edited by Ze Monstah on 08 April 2022, 09:16, edited 1 time in total.
When life gives you a ZeMon, make ZeMonade...
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maxxius
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Re: Kingmaking/helping another player

Post by maxxius »

I know this thread was quite some time ago, but of course this topic always stays relevant.

I agree with everything that donkeykong said, I have one more thing to add though; it is in some cases, for example when you play a bigger tournament, viable to delibirately starve a specific player, or help a specific player to alter the standings of the tournament in a favorable way for you. That is to say that sometimes a move in an individual game can be experienced as "wrong" or "non-gametheory-like" whereas the reason behind it has a broader goal of moving you up the rankings in a tournament (OR on the ELO ladder for that matter).

It is hard to truly determine what the reasoning behind certain moves are, sometimes it's indeed laziness or carelessness, though sometimes it's intentional with a broader reason than the game itself in mind.
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