Current ELO system ruins the game. Only 1st should gain, all others lose equally.

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GibRocky
Posts: 5
Joined: 18 January 2013, 19:02

Re: Current ELO system ruins the game. Only 1st should gain, all others lose equally.

Post by GibRocky »

I totally agree, but only for games like this. Hearts has always meant to be a attack the leader type of game, while other games aren't. I've played a lot of hearts and it has become increasingly apparent that players are playing to avoid 4th. There have even been times when you can basically call the game after two or three hands because second and third are just trying to get 4th out of the game and the leader doesn't have to do anything.

Also, because of the nature of the game, it's really one winner and three losers, so the ELO should reflect this. I would also suggest the ELO is awarded on the points difference average;
eg;
Leader wins with 42 points, second has 34, third 11 and fourth -2 - 42-34=8, 42-11=31, 42--2=44, 8+11+44=63, 63/3=21 - ELO for 2nd, 3rd & 4th would be based on a 21 point difference.
or Leader wins with 14, second has 6, third 0 and fourth -1, 14-6=8, 14-0=14, 14--1=15, 8+14+15=37, 37/3=12.33 - ELO for 2nd, 3rd & 4th would be based on a 12.33 point difference.
This would mean that players are more likely not to dump on last place as if they didn't win they might be doing themselves a mis-service.

Not sure how it could be implemented, but at the moment, Hearts is such a nasty place to play.
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DrRockenheimer
Posts: 31
Joined: 30 January 2023, 02:56

Re: Current ELO system ruins the game. Only 1st should gain, all others lose equally.

Post by DrRockenheimer »

How is this any different than order of finish in Agricola, Ticket to Ride, Azul, or whatever? Change to winner take all and it's just a different set of behaviors for players to whine about. And I would expect more ferocity in the whining because the stakes (such as they are) would be higher, and charges of kingmaking much more likely. Currently one can have a big gap between 2nd and 3rd place, but instead of players complaining about which of the two leaders should be targeted (except for the relatively weak players who always seem to be the loudest whiners, no matter the situation), the players each have at least one other player to focus on finishing ahead of.
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ufm
Posts: 1327
Joined: 06 January 2017, 08:38

Re: Current ELO system ruins the game. Only 1st should gain, all others lose equally.

Post by ufm »

To be clear, this will never be implemented as addressed here: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31027
Sparky8016
Posts: 1
Joined: 19 June 2023, 03:18

Re: Current ELO system ruins the game. Only 1st should gain, all others lose equally.

Post by Sparky8016 »

I have seen 2nd and 3rd place finishers get more points than the winner of the game. I don't think this should ever happen no matter what your rating is. Hearts has one of the worst scoring systems I have ever seen. And it gets worse the higher rating you have. After playing many games I think it's almost better to keep a lower rating than trying to build up your rating. No real incentive ti having a high rating in this game.
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ufm
Posts: 1327
Joined: 06 January 2017, 08:38

Re: Current ELO system ruins the game. Only 1st should gain, all others lose equally.

Post by ufm »

Sparky8016 wrote: 26 July 2023, 22:38 I have seen 2nd and 3rd place finishers get more points than the winner of the game. I don't think this should ever happen no matter what your rating is. Hearts has one of the worst scoring systems I have ever seen.
https://boardgamearena.com/faq?anchor=faq_account_elo
Sparky8016 wrote: 26 July 2023, 22:38 And it gets worse the higher rating you have. After playing many games I think it's almost better to keep a lower rating than trying to build up your rating. No real incentive ti having a high rating in this game.
What is the point? Players with higher rating are expected to beat lower rated players more frequently.
If they cannot do so their rating should be adjusted accordingly. That's the whole purpose of ELO.
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