Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

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blhootz
Posts: 25
Joined: 12 February 2012, 08:42

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by blhootz »

I came here to post this exact same thing, so I'm glad to see so many others in agreement. To the person who thought that this would lead to too many tied games, the game designer apparently doesn't have a problem with tied games, as they say in the rulebook, "All players who correctly guessed the central tiles win." For those of use who enjoy this sort of game — as my whole family does — it really is more about the enjoyment of figuring it out than about trying to win. But losing because someone else had more clues than you did definitely sucks the enjoyment out of it. Ties are okay, though!

I'd be perfectly happy if this were an official variant implemented here, but clearly this is how I'd play it if we were playing in real space around the same table: Every question is part of its own "round". Different people get to ask the question each round. But as soon as *anyone* makes a successful guess, *everyone* else gets one chance to guess, themselves. That way, everyone *truly* is guessing based on the same number of clues. (Not just the same number of "turns" as described in the original base game and implemented here.)

I hope this can find a way to become a real option here. My family enjoyed the premise of the game, but was greatly let down by this one element.
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Denis
Posts: 12
Joined: 28 February 2012, 06:31

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by Denis »

I see several people complaining about the flaw in the implementation for 3 and 4 player games that advantages the later players significantly. I also see several people (myself included) that will no longer play this game in these player counts.

The response from the developer has been that no changes will be made to address this, since
1) it would be a "house rule"
2) the publisher/designer is against a change
3) BGA policy does not allow implementing "house rules" unless approved by the publisher

The official rules (I checked English and French) are consistent with the implementation on BGA:
1) you only guess on your turn instead of asking a question
2) once someone has guessed correctly, you finish the round ("so that very player has the same number of turns")
3) then it says "All players who correctly guessed the central tiles win"

So the implementation is faithful. That said, the way the rules are written, it almost reads like an oversight. For example, it says "All players who correctly guessed the central tiles win." Meaning, does the writer realize that the direct implication is that the 1st player may ask a question, giving everyone the answer, then not be able to participate in guessing?

I couldn't find the BGA policy on house rules. There is a developer guideline that says "Fidelity to the original game is an absolute requirement". In fact, I know some games (like Hand & Foot) are full of house rules in the configuration (though that probably is a public domain game). But there could be other BGA policy documentation I haven't seen.

So for fans of the game who would like to see this improved, what can we do?

A) confirm or make an argument that house rules should be allowed here as optional configuration options at least.
B) boycott 3 and 4 player games, and see if anyone cares?
C) petition the publisher to allow a "house rule"
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Denis
Posts: 12
Joined: 28 February 2012, 06:31

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by Denis »

I see that a new "Competitive Game" option has been added, which plays the game over multiple rounds and rotates the player order each time. I like this idea and am going to jump back in to some 3-4p games to try it out!
Izno33
Posts: 1
Joined: 24 August 2022, 17:28

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by Izno33 »

I find it odd that no one mention this: the first player doesn't have to ask a helpful question. In a four player game, if someone asked the count of odd numbers, you can ask the count of even numbers so that the other players don't have any more information.
That's also part of the strategy.
bananasplay
Posts: 159
Joined: 30 May 2018, 16:43

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by bananasplay »

Izno33 wrote: 30 October 2022, 11:44 I find it odd that no one mention this: the first player doesn't have to ask a helpful question. In a four player game, if someone asked the count of odd numbers, you can ask the count of even numbers so that the other players don't have any more information.
That's also part of the strategy.
Clever!
Please check my profile for a list of bugs that need upvotes so that BGA will maybe get around to fixing them.
-Lieven-
Posts: 2
Joined: 24 September 2021, 14:33

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by -Lieven- »

Izno33 wrote: 30 October 2022, 11:44 I find it odd that no one mention this: the first player doesn't have to ask a helpful question. In a four player game, if someone asked the count of odd numbers, you can ask the count of even numbers so that the other players don't have any more information.
That's also part of the strategy.
Yes, but in a game of mine with 4 players, we remained with only 2, because 2 players did a wrong guess. I could then ask a non-helpful question, so my opponent doesn't get any more information. But if he does the same, the game will never end..., so I asked a helpful question, which led to a win for my opponent, because I didn't get an opportunity to guess again. So I still don't think it is fair.
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Sombracier
Posts: 13
Joined: 04 January 2017, 17:42

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by Sombracier »

play in "competitive" mode : each one play a match in every position, then the odds are even ! fair and square.
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Tilt
Posts: 11
Joined: 28 December 2020, 18:16

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by Tilt »

Yes, the rules are terrible for 3 or 4 players. It gives a huge unfair advantage to later players. There is a way to solve this cleanly though.

Solution:
When any player guesses, they write their guess down but don't check the result. He'll know if he's right or wrong later.
All other players in game order may play again until it is the turn of the original guesser. As the other players are taking their turn after the original guesser they may ask a question or also take a guess. If they guess, they write their guess down but don't check yet.
When it's the turn of the initial guesser, they alone check their guess.
- If they are right, all other players that also guessed after the original guesser get to check their result. The ones who got it right tie for the win.
- If they are wrong, they announce they lost and play continues as normal until it is the turn of the next player who also guessed.
--- If this next player who guessed got it right, all others who guessed after him check to see if they tied for the win.
--- If this next player who guessed got it wrong play continues as normal until the next player who also guessed gets to check his guess as above and so on.

Example:
Order of turns is : P1, P2, P3, P4.
P4 is the first to take a guess. He writes it down but doesn't check yet.
P1 thinks P4 is wrong and decides not to take a guess. Instead P1 asks a question which reveals more information.
P2 takes a guess, writes it down but doesn't check yet.
P3 asks a question.
P4 alone checks his guess. He is wrong and is eliminated. Play continues as normal.
P1 takes a guess. Writes it down but doesn't check yet.
P2 checks his guess and is correct! Immediately P1 also checks his guess and is correct.

Result:
P1 and P2 tie for the win.
P3 lost because he didn't guess after P2's guess.
P4 lost because he guessed wrong.

This means there's no information on whether the guesser is right or wrong until all other players got a chance to play. So there's no pressure to take a random guess to try to tie for the win because you know there's already a winner on the table. This means less chance for forced lucky guess. If you think the guesser is wrong because there's not enough info available yet you simply ask another question in the hopes he'll be proven wrong when he checks his guess. Furthermore, if at a point there's enough info to make a correct guess, all other players get a chance to guess after the original guesser leveling the playing field for all players after that point.

Honestly the original rules are so bad in giving unfair advantage to later players and this is otherwise such a good game that I offer this solution to the authors so they can amend the original rules and release an updated version with the above solution.
Hagardunor
Posts: 174
Joined: 16 April 2020, 20:59

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by Hagardunor »

Hello all

I am new to this game, and only played 1 vs 1 games.

There is a clear advantage being second too in many situations, although not as much as in 3 or 4 players games.

If you are second and make a good guess you win immediately. No chance

If you are second and your opponent proposes a code :
  • if he is right, you have one chance to make a guess yourself,even if you are far from having enough clues
  • if he is wrong, you get clues about the numbers he does not have and that may help you discard some of the solutions that remain in your screening, perhaps leaving you with just one solution
If you are second and make a good guess you win immediately. No chance for your opponent to try his chance as it happens for the second to play.
Hagardunor
Posts: 174
Joined: 16 April 2020, 20:59

Re: Distinct disadvantage for 1st position and advantage for last position

Post by Hagardunor »

Sombracier wrote: 17 September 2023, 12:28 play in "competitive" mode : each one play a match in every position, then the odds are even ! fair and square.
That's effectiveley the only fair way to play
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