About wargames

General discussion on board games
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cigma
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Joined: 15 December 2020, 00:30

About wargames

Post by cigma »

CAN WAR BE A GAME?

In the year 2020 around 50.000 people* worldwide have been killed on direct violation in wars. Wars kill soldiers and civilians, make children orphans, lead to lifelong disabilities, leave families without breadwinners. Wars devastate the country, destroy homes, schools, hospitals, electricity and water supply, factories, all kinds of infrastructure. Wars bring millions of suffering, physical and emotional. Wars destroy the livelihood of at least one generation. On both sides.

WAR IS NOT A GAME. WAR IS DEADLY SERIOUS.

This is not against BGA or any game designer, publisher, developer, or player. I just want you to be fully aware what you are doing when you choose to „play“ war.


- - -
* Source: https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace
#zan_zendegi_azadi / #woman_life_freedom
#StandWithUkraine
Language is a source of misunderstanding. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery: The Little Prince) But it is also the source of understanding - it all depends on how you use it. :-)
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Lunalol
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Joined: 09 October 2016, 23:21

Re: About wargames

Post by Lunalol »

And what are you DOING when you play a video game (GTA, COD...) ?
And what children are DOING their play cowboys and indians ?
And what are you DOING when you watch an horror movie (like SAW !) ?

Do you thing that murderers, dictators, serial-killers have time to play war-games or video-games ?
War-games players are the most pacifical people I know (not like football hooligans).
So please, stop play football :geek:

Please, change that thread title : CAN A GAME LEAD TO VIOLENCE ?
and remove war-games from your list.
CesareRaf
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Joined: 08 May 2022, 13:20

Re: About wargames

Post by CesareRaf »

cigma wrote: 26 November 2022, 11:12 CAN WAR BE A GAME?

In the year 2020 around 50.000 people* worldwide have been killed on direct violation in wars. Wars kill soldiers and civilians, make children orphans, lead to lifelong disabilities, leave families without breadwinners. Wars devastate the country, destroy homes, schools, hospitals, electricity and water supply, factories, all kinds of infrastructure. Wars bring millions of suffering, physical and emotional. Wars destroy the livelihood of at least one generation. On both sides.

WAR IS NOT A GAME. WAR IS DEADLY SERIOUS.

This is not against BGA or any game designer, publisher, developer, or player. I just want you to be fully aware what you are doing when you choose to „play“ war.


- - -
* Source: https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace
This is by far the most useless and pathetic post I have ever read on BGA. It is on the same level of Helen Lovejoy pleading randomly "Will someone please think of the children?" in The Simpsons (I hope you get the reference!). How can you not distinguish between play and reality?

And to think that I had opened the post hoping for news about recently added wargames...
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Jeronimon
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Joined: 11 June 2022, 11:34

Re: About wargame

Post by Jeronimon »

CesareRaf wrote: 30 November 2022, 15:20
cigma wrote: 26 November 2022, 11:12 CAN WAR BE A GAME?

In the year 2020 around 50.000 people* worldwide have been killed on direct violation in wars. Wars kill soldiers and civilians, make children orphans, lead to lifelong disabilities, leave families without breadwinners. Wars devastate the country, destroy homes, schools, hospitals, electricity and water supply, factories, all kinds of infrastructure. Wars bring millions of suffering, physical and emotional. Wars destroy the livelihood of at least one generation. On both sides.

WAR IS NOT A GAME. WAR IS DEADLY SERIOUS.

This is not against BGA or any game designer, publisher, developer, or player. I just want you to be fully aware what you are doing when you choose to „play“ war.

- - -
* Source: https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace
This is by far the most useless and pathetic post I have ever read on BGA. It is on the same level of Helen Lovejoy pleading randomly "Will someone please think of the children?" in The Simpsons (I hope you get the reference!). How can you not distinguish between play and reality?

And to think that I had opened the post hoping for news about recently added wargames...
I disagree with you that this post is useless and pathetic.
I do agree with cigma that war is atrocious, horrible and should be avoided.

However I do play war games, the main reason I am on BGA is that Memoir’44 has been implemented here.
Memoir’44 is not only a great game (my opinion 😎) but it also wants to remind us of the people who gave their lives for our freedom in the Second World War. We should remember all those lives lost in WWII and in wars before and after. And we should be aware that war is hell.

Why do I still play war games? War games have been around since the dawn of time examples like chess, checkers and go all revolve around battle and area control against your opponent. They also allow us to pit our wits against other players and sharpen our minds. In our community (Memoir’44) we have saying: we play war so we don’t wage war. I also want to say that so far the Memoir’44 community has been welcoming friendly and helpful. It was already spread across the globe (heavily favouring Us and France :) ), but I hope being on BGA can grow and strengthen our community even more and we can spread understanding across more people and countries.

I know I am a naive optimist when I say I think if more Russian Alexes had played more board games against Ukrainian Borisses maybe it would have been harder to go to war against each other. But still that is how I feel.

Another factor is, if we play against each other across borders, we can also inform each other better across borders. In most countries there are various forms of media control that disallows information to get through. Boardgame and other communities can spread more information across platforms and borders that are harder to control (I am aware that those channels can also be used to spread misinformation, but we as a community have a say in that.) on this forum there are topics doing just that.


More specific for Memoir’44
Recently I visited and played in the Memoir’44 Belgium Open. The theme was Belgian troops across WWII. The organisers did not shy away from difficult topics like Belgians that fought for the SS, deportation of Jews and our western presence in Africa. Yes, I did play a war game that weekend, and yes I did have (a lot) of fun. But I also learned new history and about some atrocities of war.
Col Rosenberg
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Joined: 25 December 2022, 08:08

Re: About wargames

Post by Col Rosenberg »

Human progress has been helped, rather than hindered, by war.
Wars devastate the country, destroy homes, schools, hospitals, electricity and water supply, factories, all kinds of infrastructure.
Wars kill soldiers and civilians.
by fighting wars, people have created larger, more organized societies that have reduced the risk that their members will die violently.
I just want you to be fully aware what you are doing when you choose to „play“ war.
Even in "playing War," Some players feel BGA Should make War (can War be a game?) on those who Create War (Russia/Ukraine)...Go Figure.
I Choose "playing War" oppose too creating War...I can "play War" with the best of em!
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Jeronimon
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Re: About wargames

Post by Jeronimon »

Col Rosenberg wrote: 26 December 2022, 10:21 Human progress has been helped, rather than hindered, by war.

by fighting wars, people have created larger, more organized societies that have reduced the risk that their members will die violently.
You might mean something else but what I read here is: we fought and took land/freedom/stuff from “others” so we could feel safe and have more land/freedom/stuff.
If you did not mean that let me know :)
Col Rosenberg wrote: 26 December 2022, 10:21 I Choose "playing War" oppose too creating War...I can "play War" with the best of em!
Her e we are in agreement :)
Col Rosenberg
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Joined: 25 December 2022, 08:08

Re: About wargames

Post by Col Rosenberg »

You might mean something else but what I read here is:
In the Stone Age, you had as much as a 20 percent chance of dying violently at the hands of another human being. But in the 20th century -- even with the trenches, even with Hitler, with Hiroshima, with terrorism and with a panoply of Third World wars -- you had only a 1 or 2 percent chance of dying violently.
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Jeronimon
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Re: About wargames

Post by Jeronimon »

Col Rosenberg wrote: 27 December 2022, 22:48
You might mean something else but what I read here is:
In the Stone Age, you had as much as a 20 percent chance of dying violently at the hands of another human being. But in the 20th century -- even with the trenches, even with Hitler, with Hiroshima, with terrorism and with a panoply of Third World wars -- you had only a 1 or 2 percent chance of dying violently.
My Stone Age history is little. But tone age people I thought rarely killed each other.
But I might be wrong and am curious as to your source(s) so I can enlighten myself.
Col Rosenberg
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Re: About wargames

Post by Col Rosenberg »

But stone age people I thought rarely killed each other.
It's an ongoing debate.
I'm of the opinion that maybe the word 'war' doesn't apply yet in this period because societies were a bit smaller.


Hard as it may be to believe, in general, imperialism has advanced humanity by making it safer and wealthier, and by aspiring to a universalism beyond tribe and ethnicity.

Reading: The Hobbesian Solution.

the rise of Hobbesian Leviathans that could only come about by war itself.

A Leviathan is the horrifying monster that Job beheld in the Bible, the "king over all the children of pride." The 17th century English philosopher Thomas Hobbes used the concept as a metaphor for a strong central government that, by monopolizing the use of force, would make men no longer fear each other but only the authorities above them. Such was the way toward peaceful progress. Ironically, throughout history Leviathan has generally been created not by reasoned discussion but by war. He laments that this is so but demonstrates that humanity has thus far found no other way.
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nicch
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Re: About wargames

Post by nicch »

Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat them.

Many wargames it is apparent about the cost and sacrifice on both sides, even the winning.
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