'allow only lowest number of cards to be captured' rule

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PiratJack
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 August 2021, 08:28

Re: 'allow only lowest number of cards to be captured' rule

Post by PiratJack »

Hello,


I'll try to explain differently, sorry if it's blunt: I already did what you want. If you disagree, please prove me that I'm wrong with a specific example.


Those are the rules that I applied for the standard, no variant, Scopa game:
- If there is a single card with the same value as the one you're playing, you take that card only
- If this is not the case AND there are multiple cards whose sum matches your card, then you can take that combination of cards
- In all other cases, your card will go on the table
I believe this is what you want. And I believe this is how the code is working, otherwise I would have received dozens of people complaining about it. And it's also what I tested, repeatedly, while coding this game.


If the above rules are applied, then capturing 7+2 when there is a 9 on the table should not be possible. If you saw it happen, it may be due to many causes:
- There is a bug in my code
- There was a variant enabled that uses different rules
- There was an option enabled that uses different rules
- Somebody cheated
- There was a bug in BGA itself
- ...
I have no idea which is the correct explanation. I need a specific table and move to look into it.


Regards,

PiratJack
User avatar
FelixFelicus7
Posts: 21
Joined: 13 March 2019, 03:33

Re: 'allow only lowest number of cards to be captured' rule

Post by FelixFelicus7 »

PiratJack wrote: 27 December 2022, 19:40 Hello,


I'll try to explain differently, sorry if it's blunt: I already did what you want. If you disagree, please prove me that I'm wrong with a specific example.


Those are the rules that I applied for the standard, no variant, Scopa game:
- If there is a single card with the same value as the one you're playing, you take that card only
- If this is not the case AND there are multiple cards whose sum matches your card, then you can take that combination of cards
- In all other cases, your card will go on the table
I believe this is what you want. And I believe this is how the code is working, otherwise I would have received dozens of people complaining about it. And it's also what I tested, repeatedly, while coding this game.


If the above rules are applied, then capturing 7+2 when there is a 9 on the table should not be possible. If you saw it happen, it may be due to many causes:
- There is a bug in my code
- There was a variant enabled that uses different rules
- There was an option enabled that uses different rules
- Somebody cheated
- There was a bug in BGA itself
- ...
I have no idea which is the correct explanation. I need a specific table and move to look into it.

Regards,

PiratJack
Je crois qu'il y a confusion sur ce que Vogliovincere et moi vous demandons concernant la section "options" de votre implémentation Scopa.

Tout d'abord, je comprends que la 2ème "option" de "autoriser la capture de n'importe quelle combinaison" existe pour permettre aux joueurs d'utiliser la variante Cirulla.

Cependant, notre argument concerne une lacune dans la 1ère "option", pas un bogue.

Nous demandons que la 1ère 'option' de "n'autoriser que le plus petit nombre de cartes à capturer" soit ajustée pour respecter les règles traditionnelles de la Scopa standard reconnue dans le monde entier.

Pour refléter les règles traditionnelles, il pourrait être changé en "une carte de valeur correspondante doit être capturée sinon n'importe quelle combinaison peut être capturée", ce qui permettrait alors ce qui suit, ce qui est cohérent avec les règles standard de Scopa :

Si un 10(King) est joué et qu'il n'y a pas de 10(King) sur la table composée de 9club, 7coin, 2coin, 1sword, alors le joueur pourra choisir entre le 9+1 OU le 7+2+1 qui est crucial dans la stratégie Scopa en raison du gain de 7 et de pièces et n'est actuellement pas disponible dans l'implémentation BGA.

Cela a-t-il un sens maintenant ? J'apprécierais que d'autres joueurs expérimentés et gourous de Scopa me soutiennent ici.

J'espère que vous trouverez le temps de répondre PiratJack.

In Italian
Credo che ci sia confusione su ciò che vogliovincere e io vi stiamo chiedendo in merito alla sezione 'opzioni' della vostra implementazione Scopa.

In primo luogo, capisco che esiste la seconda "opzione" di "consentire l'acquisizione di qualsiasi combinazione" per consentire ai giocatori di utilizzare la variante Cirulla.

Tuttavia, la nostra argomentazione riguarda un difetto nella prima "opzione", non un bug.

Chiediamo che la 1a "opzione" di "consentire la cattura solo del minor numero di carte" sia adattata per rispettare le regole tradizionali della Scopa standard riconosciuta a livello mondiale.

Per riflettere le regole tradizionali potrebbe essere cambiato in "una carta di valore corrispondente deve essere catturata altrimenti qualsiasi combinazione può essere catturata", il che consentirebbe quindi quanto segue, coerente con le regole Scopa standard:

Se viene giocato un 10 (Re) e non c'è un 10 (Re) sul tavolo composto da 9 fiori, 7 monete, 2 monete, 1 spada, allora il giocatore potrà scegliere tra il 9+1 o il 7+2+1 che è cruciale nella strategia Scopa perché guadagna 7 e monete e non è attualmente disponibile nell'implementazione BGA.

Ha senso adesso? Apprezzerei se altri giocatori esperti e guru di Scopa mi sostenessero qui.

Spero che tu trovi il tempo per rispondere a PiratJack.
PiratJack
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 August 2021, 08:28

Re: 'allow only lowest number of cards to be captured' rule

Post by PiratJack »

Hello,


I think I understand what you want, and I already did it in the game.


I tested it just now:
- Variant is "Standard Scopa"
- Napola variant is "Disabled"
- Option "Allow only the lowest number of cards to be captured" is enabled
- In my hand: Knight (9) of coin, King (10) of sword, 2 of club
- On the table: 2 of coin, 3 or coin, 7 of cup, Knight (9) of cup
I played the Knight (9) of coin, it game me no choice and captured the Knight (9) of cup. It did NOT allow me to choose the 2 of coin + 7 of cup.

Here are 2 screenshots:
Image


Image


Regards,

PiratJack
User avatar
FelixFelicus7
Posts: 21
Joined: 13 March 2019, 03:33

Re: 'allow only lowest number of cards to be captured' rule

Post by FelixFelicus7 »

PiratJack wrote: 28 December 2022, 10:17 Hello,


I think I understand what you want, and I already did it in the game.


I tested it just now:
- Variant is "Standard Scopa"
- Napola variant is "Disabled"
- Option "Allow only the lowest number of cards to be captured" is enabled
- In my hand: Knight (9) of coin, King (10) of sword, 2 of club
- On the table: 2 of coin, 3 or coin, 7 of cup, Knight (9) of cup
I played the Knight (9) of coin, it game me no choice and captured the Knight (9) of cup. It did NOT allow me to choose the 2 of coin + 7 of cup.

Here are 2 screenshots:
Image


Image


Regards,

PiratJack
I'm afraid you're still missing the point PiratJack. Vogliovincere wasn't reporting a bug to you re the 9,2,7.

He was explaining how the core rule of standard Scopa being that you can capture ANY combination of cards IF no single matching cards exists cannot be played in the current implementation because of how you've setup the options.

If you tweaked option 1 from 'only allow lowest number of cards be captured' to 'allow any combination of cards to be captured IF there is no single matching card' because this way if a 10(King) is played and there is no 10(King) on the table showing 9club, 7coin, 2coin, 1sword, then the player would be able to choose between the 9+1 OR the 7+2+1 which is fundamental in standard Scopa strategy because of gaining 7s and coins.

From what I understand the 2nd option to 'allow any combination of cards' option is only relevant for the Cirulla variant, yes?
PiratJack
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 August 2021, 08:28

Re: 'allow only lowest number of cards to be captured' rule

Post by PiratJack »

FelixFelicus7 wrote: 28 December 2022, 13:41 I'm afraid you're still missing the point PiratJack. Vogliovincere wasn't reporting a bug to you re the 9,2,7.

He was explaining how the core rule of standard Scopa being that you can capture ANY combination of cards IF no single matching cards exists cannot be played in the current implementation because of how you've setup the options.

If you tweaked option 1 from 'only allow lowest number of cards be captured' to 'allow any combination of cards to be captured IF there is no single matching card' because this way if a 10(King) is played and there is no 10(King) on the table showing 9club, 7coin, 2coin, 1sword, then the player would be able to choose between the 9+1 OR the 7+2+1 which is fundamental in standard Scopa strategy because of gaining 7s and coins.

From what I understand the 2nd option to 'allow any combination of cards' option is only relevant for the Cirulla variant, yes?
Hello,

And I'm afraid you're missing my point: I want an example of an actual game where that rule is not applied.
In the end, I created several test games to see what happens and what could be the issue. Now I understand that, with the "allow any combination", it would let you choose which combination to capture, rather than force you to capture only the single card.

I'll work on building this new variant when I have some time. The suggestion is here - I'll update it when I'm done: https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=78228

For inforamtion: the second option is not specifically for Cirulla (Frac uses the same rule). Some players also like to use it on "regular" scopa (abot 5% of the games on BGA use that settings - this being said, the other settings is the default one, most players don't change the defaults.)


Regards,

PiratJack
User avatar
FelixFelicus7
Posts: 21
Joined: 13 March 2019, 03:33

Re: 'allow only lowest number of cards to be captured' rule

Post by FelixFelicus7 »

"I'll work on building this new variant when I have some time. The suggestion is here - I'll update it when I'm done: https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=78228"

Many thanks PiratJack! That new option/variant is exactly what we've been asking for. Really appreciate your developmemt skills & I have posted the link in the Scopa Community discussion :)

Best wishes for 2023.
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