[PROBLEM SOLVED - Refilling the bag/tile distribution in round 6]

[Propaganda_Panda]

So, from my understanding, the rules are as follows:
- There are 100 tiles in a bag, 20 of each color, which get placed onto the plates. That's it, there are no more tiles.
- If nobody has a horizontal line of 5, the game continues. If the bag is empty, it is refilled with all the previously discarded tiles.

Here is the exact quote from the rulebook:



Now I just had a game go to a 6th round, which is obviously very unusual. It may have been the first time where this has ever happened to me. However, I thought that you can pretty much deduce the distribution of tiles for the 6th round simply by looking at the tiles which have already been placed, as there are only exact 20 of each, no matter what happens.

Back to the exact game - here is the game state at the start of round 6:



Unless I miscalculated, me and my opponent have placed: 18 blue, 12 yellow, 16 red, 13 black, 19 white.

Therefore, these tiles got discarded this previous rounds: 2 blue, 8 yellow, 4 red, 7 black, 1 white (which is 22, so two of these won't be placed).

However, the distribution of tiles on the plates at the start of the 6th round is as follows: 2 blue, 4 yellow, 3 red, 6 black, 5 white

Did I overlook something, or is this just wrong? I had thought that there is no way that my opponent can complete their color (white), whereas I have great chances to complete mine (yellow). But for some reason, even though 19 white tiles are already placed, 5 more appeared out of nowhere. At the same time, only 4 yellows were placed for the 6th round which made it literally impossible for me to complete my own color.

I lost by 1 point despite being ahead basically the entire game. It only went to the 6th round because of an egregious blunder by me, so I feel that I deserve the loss, but at the same time, this is somewhat upsetting. I always played by the rule of gist: As soon as you place 6 tiles of color, the opponent cannot complete this color anymore. Am I hallucinating things, did I just do some severe miscounting, did I understand the rules wrong? Please correct me! I Surely I am just overlooking something here, but I don't know what.

The game in question is #350450889.

[cigma]

Unless I miscalculated, me and my opponent have placed: 18 blue, 12 yellow, 16 red, 13 black, 19 white.

You have calculated correctly, but missed one point: You or your opponent might have placed some tiles on the bottom row in any of the first 5 rounds, which cannot be reconstructed by the screenshot. But since this has no influence on the following, I didn't check the replay for this.

Therefore, these tiles got discarded this previous rounds: 2 blue, 8 yellow, 4 red, 7 black, 1 white (which is 22, so two of these won't be placed).

This is not correct. For example: For the blue tile in your third row, you have discarded 2 blue tiles. For the blue tile in your fourth row, you have discarded 3 blue tiles, and so on. In total 12 blue tiles have been discarded (or more, considering the bottom row). All discarded tiles are set aside until the bag is empty and further tiles have to be distributed.

So what are your chances for each colour to appear at the beginning of the 6th round?

So, from my understanding, the rules are as follows:
- There are 100 tiles in a bag, 20 of each color, which get placed onto the plates. That's it, there are no more tiles.
- If nobody has a horizontal line of 5, the game continues. If the bag is empty, it is refilled with all the previously discarded tiles.

That's correct. In each of the first 5 rounds, 20 tiles (4 on each of the 5 plates) were distributed (in a 2 player game). Which results in the bag being empty after setup for the 5th round (5 x 20 = 100), no matter how many tiles have been discarded in the meantime.

So at the beginning of the 6th round, all discarded tiles are put back into the bag - all tiles which are not placed on the boards after scoring the 5th round: 6 blue tiles on the boards = 14 blue tiles in the bag. Also 15 yellow tiles + 11 red tiles + 12 black tiles + 13 white tiles in the bag. So there are 65 tiles in the bag, of which 20 are drawn randomly. The chances for each colour to appear is nearly the same (not mathematically, but in real life).

[Propaganda_Panda]

Unless I miscalculated, me and my opponent have placed: 18 blue, 12 yellow, 16 red, 13 black, 19 white.

You have calculated correctly, but missed one point: You or your opponent might have placed some tiles on the bottom row in any of the first 5 rounds, which cannot be reconstructed by the screenshot. But since this has no influence on the following, I didn't check the replay for this.

Therefore, these tiles got discarded this previous rounds: 2 blue, 8 yellow, 4 red, 7 black, 1 white (which is 22, so two of these won't be placed).

This is not correct. For example: For the blue tile in your third row, you have discarded 2 blue tiles. For the blue tile in your fourth row, you have discarded 3 blue tiles, and so on. In total 12 blue tiles have been discarded (or more, considering the bottom row). All discarded tiles are set aside until the bag is empty and further tiles have to be distributed.

So what are your chances for each colour to appear at the beginning of the 6th round?

So, from my understanding, the rules are as follows:
- There are 100 tiles in a bag, 20 of each color, which get placed onto the plates. That's it, there are no more tiles.
- If nobody has a horizontal line of 5, the game continues. If the bag is empty, it is refilled with all the previously discarded tiles.

That's correct. In each of the first 5 rounds, 20 tiles (4 on each of the 5 plates) were distributed (in a 2 player game). Which results in the bag being empty after setup for the 5th round (5 x 20 = 100), no matter how many tiles have been discarded in the meantime.

So at the beginning of the 6th round, all discarded tiles are put back into the bag - all tiles which are not placed on the boards after scoring the 5th round: 6 blue tiles on the boards = 14 blue tiles in the bag. Also 15 yellow tiles + 11 red tiles + 12 black tiles + 13 white tiles in the bag. So there are 65 tiles in the bag, of which 20 are drawn randomly. The chances for each colour to appear is nearly the same (not mathematically, but in real life).

Ah I see, now I see where the problem lies. I thought that "placed" tiles go out of the game permanently (as they are placed), while with "discarded" tiles, I thought this means tiles from the floor only. Never played the game irl (and outside of 2p) and a 6th round is so rare that this gap in rule understanding never came to bite me in the ass so far. Obviously it has to be that way, otherwise it wouldn't work with higher player counts.

Thanks for educating me and taking your time to write such a detailed answer! Topic can be closed

[KenFin1]

No, I had the same issue earlier today and I counted the discards. The game appears to refill the factory spaces to 20 in round 6 even if the cumulative discards are less than 20 tiles. In my case there were 14 discards yet 20 tiles appeared in round 6.

Here is the game table: https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=373083714

You can calculate for yourselves, but I record the following:
blue yellow red black white total
round1 2 4 7 4 3 20
round2 3 5 5 4 3 20
round3 4 2 1 7 6 20
round4 5 3 5 3 4 20
round5 6 6 2 2 4 20
round6 3 4 5 5 3 20

Floor line
blue yellow red black white total
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 1 1 0 2
0 0 1 1 2 4
1 2 0 1 0 4
2 1 1 0 0 4


sry for the formatting it doesn't paste well.

[cigma]

No, I had the same issue earlier today and I counted the discards. The game appears to refill the factory spaces to 20 in round 6 even if the cumulative discards are less than 20 tiles. In my case there were 14 discards yet 20 tiles appeared in round 6.

The discards are not only the tiles from the bottom row, but also the tiles which are taken from the board in every scoring, e. g after your first round:
1. row: 1 red scored -> no discard
2. row: 2 blue scored -> 1 discarded
3. row: 3 black scored -> 2 discarded
4. row: 4 red scored -> 3 discarded
5. row: 1 yellow -> no scoring, no discard

So at the end of round 1, 6 tiles have been discarded from your board and likewise 3 tiles of your opponents' tiles.

[KenFin1]

ohhhhh so those go back in as well from the placement rows? that explains a lot. We have been playing this wrong IRL. Ha! Is this a recent rule change or am I just not very good at reading?

[thoun]

No rule change

[Meeplelowda]

ohhhhh so those go back in as well from the placement rows? that explains a lot. We have been playing this wrong IRL.

You mean you've just been taking them out of play?

B. Wall-tiling
....
B) Then, remove all tiles from any pattern lines that now have no tile in the rightmost space. Place them into the lid of the game box to store them for now.

C. Preparing the next round
...
If the bag is empty, refill it with all the tiles that you have placed in the lid of the game box ... .

[KenFin1]

You mean you've just been taking them out of play?

yup