The problem with boats + Merchants

[Godsmurf]

The Lords card has been made optional because it greatly advantages the last player in turn order. However I think there's an even bigger balance problem in the game, and that is when Merchants card comes out while boats are on the board. Whichever player(s) get the boat (by being the first to draw desert or canyon, which is entirely down to luck) will win or fight for the win, while the player(s) who can't get boat don't have a chance. In a two player game where both players get a boat (because one draws desert first and the other draws canyon first) it's not a problem, but in every other possibility it determines the outcome. I don't think I've ever seen a player win a game with Merchants without a boat. The difference in skill would have to be enormous for that.

An option to avoid the Merchants / Boat combo would be great. I know it's unlikely to happen this long after the implementation, but I was wondering if other players agree.

[cigma]

I am sure that merchants + boat is a good combination, but I am not sure it is so strong that "player(s) who can't get boat don't have a chance".
- You have 2 other objectives to work on, and they might give you even more points.
- Other players will block those with the boats wherever they can.
- You can pick up bonus tiles which allow you to set more houses and therefore speed up the game (boats are slow).

[Godsmurf]

Boats help you reach other bonus tiles more easily. Seriously, I've never seen anyone win without a boat when Merchants + boat are out. I happen to just be starting such a game, and I luck out and get desert+canyon as my first two cards so I can surround the boat. The game is over now, before my opponent has even made his second move. He has zero chance of winning this, even though he has a higher rating than me. It's ridiculous.

[Godsmurf]

Today I'm in a 3p game with Merchants + Boats. My opponents each get one of the two boats in their first turn, so I have lost the game before my first move.

I'll shut up about it now, just wanted to report this. It's a much, much bigger imbalance than the Lords card was.

[cigma]

I guess you are referring to this game: https://boardgamearena.com/9/kingdombui ... =354297535 and I gree that your chances are pretty poor, in addition considering the possibilities for your first bonus tile and the other objectives. But also player count is important: in a 2 player game, each has good chances to pick up a boat. In a 4 player game, there are 2 players to fight the boat owners. So I still think it's not a general problem with merchants + boat, but depending on the circumstances.

Altogether, we have to accept that Kingdom Builder has some luck involved.

[Kavorka]

Harbor is certainly helpful to getting a high merchant score.

However keep in mind that frequently players will remove the harbor tile touching the water in order to jump to a new water location.
This can allow for a easy harbor + subsequent free jump by drawing for example a desert card turn 2/3 or picking up an oasis turn 1/2.

I could see this being more of an issue in a non arena 3-4p game, where harbor it could be completely blocked before even having a turn.
IMO KB will always have those frustrating un-winnable games where you draw 3 forest in a row to start etc. So don't let those games be to much of a bother, just go next.

[imarnidia]

This is why I simply won't play KB with more than 2 players. If Harbour is in play, then the player who doesn't get it, is essentially a spectator.

[Erdbeertorte]

I agree that getting the harbour in a merchant game is very important. But in a 2 person game it is no problem.
If some one starts with canyon and dessert in a 2 person game, circling the ship tile may be an option. However, such a start throws you far back in the fight for the others tiles. It might be fair option if there are as many ship tiles in the game as player are in it cause most of the time you have the option to set near the ship tile later in the game.

[Erdbeertorte]

I watch the beginning of https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=354297535
Your opps have a really good start cause they got non neighboured colours at the beginning in contrast to you. You had bad luck with your first 2 picks, but you made a big mistake with the placements of your first settlements. The result was that you couldn't set free on the third move either.
After the very bad start and the good start of the opponents, you must have done a lot right. Otherwise you wouldn't have finished second.

KB is a very nice 2 person game. The more players play, the more serious a bad start is. And here the turn order can have a serious influence. Starting last in a 3 or 4 player game is a major disadvantage in KB. And the disadvantage is bigger than getting no harbour.

[patrober]

I watch the beginning of https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=354297535
Your opps have a really good start cause they got non neighboured colours at the beginning in contrast to you. You had bad luck with your first 2 picks, but you made a big mistake with the placements of your first settlements. The result was that you couldn't set free on the third move either.
After the very bad start and the good start of the opponents, you must have done a lot right. Otherwise you wouldn't have finished second.

KB is a very nice 2 person game. The more players play, the more serious a bad start is. And here the turn order can have a serious influence. Starting last in a 3 or 4 player game is a major disadvantage in KB. And the disadvantage is bigger than getting no harbour.

Where would you have played your first move if you were that player?