Play right most from a chop play clue

[Blacktango]

Hello,

What convention do you play by, when you get a number play clue on chop?

Ex:
- No 4 in the discard pile, and only the B4 is playable.
- Player 1 gives a direct clue to Player 2 (= no finesse/reverse/...). Player 3 has no 4 on chop, so it's just a play clue.

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What would you play as Player 2, receiving this 4 clue?

On BGA, I used to follow the "play most recent when you don't know what to play" convention, so even on chop, I would bomb here, trying to play the Y4.
IMO, this is consistent with the color clue, and allows us to protect the rightmost card(s).

It seems some BGA players choose the right most as a convention.

Note that this is different when all 4 are playable.
Ex :

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In such a case, if the right most is a trash, we could just delay the clue and let it be discarded first.
So if we clue it anyway, it means that the rightmost one is important and must be playable.

[shaun hoversten]

When a # clue touches the chop, the chop card should be treated as the important card. It should be either a save (other is discarded or it is a 5) or it should be playable. If I am the one receiving the number clue, and I see the same number on next player's chop, I consider it could be that card as well. If I am a partner and see my teammate who plays before me get the # clue, I need to consider it could be same chop save, and not treat it like finesse.

But, as an example, if a pile has 1/2/3 played, and I receive a 4 clue that touches chop, no 4 is in discard and no 4 on next's chop, I am playing the chop 4.

Too often I have had partners clue that and blame me when I don't play left 4...they should simply wait one discard and then clue the 4, and if I draw something that makes it tough, can wait until that 4 is on chop or have partner give a help clue

[orgle]

If I am a partner and see my teammate who plays before me get the # clue, I need to consider it could be same chop save, and not treat it like finesse.

I have to disagree with you on the double discard front -- players need to use other methods to avoid a double discard.

* Better hand management
* forced correction/save cluing
* trash number/colour clues
* intentional bombs

There are so many ways to prevent a double discard it hasn't been an issue for us in ages (except through player error). You cannot expect early # chop clues to be used for both [finesses, reverses, & bluffs] AND [double discard early saves].

As a last resort, it's far better to cause a bomb or lose the card and hope for a useful Flam than to muddy the waters with early double discard # chop saves. We don't play with as challenging variants as H-group -- we can afford to have clearcut conventions which avoid guesswork.

I do, however, appreciate your distinction that a number clue that touches the chop is *always* chop focus -- otherwise the cluer would have let you discard and clue the desired card later. We've been dabbling with a bit of chop focus # clues, particularly in end game, and I couldn't quite voice the reasoning for left vs right play in the moment. I think "# clue on chop = always chop focus" is the most straightforward way to put that into practice -- no nuance required.

I'll see if I can muster up the desire to play a game to test it out. The ELO changes have sapped my desire to play (hence my current loitering in the forums).

[Silene]

I'm with Blacktango on the focus card. I'd play left 4. Mainly because I always play with black color on, so letting 4s discard might not be a good thing in case it is k4. If I want the chop 4 played, I would need 2 players to cooperate for it.

I'm with shaun on the double-chop-save. But only if can't see any other reasonable way how they could've handled it (including i.e. going to 7 clue tokens, clueing known trash to delay). I wouldn't risk to let it discard. But I'm usually playing without flams, so taking risks might hurt more. I usually am aware something might be a twin-chop-save when I or a player next to me gets a save on a non-unique and discard before responding to it as finesse. But I confess to regularly mishap on that one.

[Travis Hall]

When playing with high-level partners, I generally try to regard a number clue touching chop as chop-focussed unless there is a timeliness consideration.

(When playing with partners who are not high-level, who knows what they mean? A lot of players who can’t reach master are stuck because they expect guessing, and their partners to magically guess right.)

When I speak of a timeliness consideration, the most basic example is a finesse. This can only be clued when the next card to play is in finesse position. So, when giving a finesse, we can’t wait for the discard of the chop. For example:
Played: 2w
A: to move
B: (3w) x x x
C: (5m) x (4w) (4k)

A clues 4 to C. Cluing white is blocked by 5m. Cluing 4 can’t wait, because B will probably discard and 3w will move out of finesse. C can note the finesse response and adjust their expectation to play the left 4.

And I try to consistently clue the same way.

I recognise that many masters will clue 2s non-chop-focussed in the early game. Frankly, I’m not a fan, as this forces me to guess who does this and who does not, but I will guess because my rate of error is lower that way. I understand the consideration that 2s are the most valuable cards, but I’m not sure the risks are worth it.

Whenever somebody touches my chop with a number clue and expects me to play from the left, and I misfire, my question is always “Well, if my cards were the opposite way around, how would you have clued them?” Of the few who will answer that question at all, the answer is usually, “I would clue <number>,” and they don’t understand that this makes it impossible for me to do anything other than guess.

[Blacktango]

I agree, which extensions are on is important.
If Avalanche and Black Powder are off, you can easily give color clue to focus the leftmost card, so considering a number clue is always chop focus seems like a good idea to me.

In my example, there was no strict timeliness consideration, except that if I wait a turn, we will have a the rightmost 4 in the discard, then my 4 clue will look like a save for a possible duplicate.