We need to have a talk about ELO

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aesche
Posts: 403
Joined: 06 April 2020, 02:31

Re: We need to have a talk about ELO

Post by aesche »

I‘ve said it before elsewhere:

Its an old and lame discussion, which also occurs in other games (even such with more skill and less luck than hearts, like wizard), with the requesters just wanting their idea implemented, but not caring about arguments about why not to. Luckily never to any success.

What all that are pushing for „only winning matters“ are ignoring is that, at some point, for the last ppl, a victory is very unlikely / almost impossible. What should they do, instead of gunning for the opponent in reach? Abandon the game? I doubt that would make anyone more happy. Or they could make sure that the leader wins asap, so that a new game and equal winning chances can happen asap. But wait, that‘s what you already complain about, so… 🤷‍♂️

Btw, that‘s also what happens in our real games, ppl who dont see their chance to win anymore gun at the opponents in reach. We never had a discussion that this would be wrong, and that they instead just should give up and make sure they play passively & neutrally. With 1-2 very strong / dominant players in the game, the excitement on the table for making 2nd / 3rd / not last sometimes even is larger than for the winner, that was expected to win anyway.

If you want to play like that, put it into the table description / clarify with everyone upfront / play only with ppl that think alike, but dont expect the dev to force everyone to play as you think is right, and that wont solve the problem for you either.

Because, pretty certainly, your actual problem here is not the ELO system, but that in these games the other players, to some degree, are flexible whom to play against, and that this doesnt always match with whom you think they should play against. That will never be the case, no matter how you implement the rewards. So maybe better play cooperative or 2 player/team games, or games with less flexibility whom to play against (good luck finding that).
Waugapapa
Posts: 7
Joined: 04 January 2024, 05:10

Re: We need to have a talk about ELO

Post by Waugapapa »

ufm wrote: 14 May 2024, 02:05 EDIT: I've had enough. You proved you can't post any credible basis for your argument. I'll not respond further to this subject.
I’m glad you’ve had enough of being wrong!
Once again—every link *you provided* described one winner and three losers. Ranking the losers provides grades of winner, which is why people on here fight tooth and nail for third place.

In hearts without ELO, everyone tries to *actually win* until the very end, because there’s no reward other than winning. On here, the queen gets dumped as soon as someone has a 20 point lead—completely different game.

It’s okay to be wrong. You made a mistake and tried to make an argument without arguing. It’s the internet. It happens.

I’ll help you. The *only* argument you can try to make is that ELO doesn’t matter. But, as soon as opponents are grouped by ELO, then it *does* matter—playing with unskilled players hurts your chances of winning, just like blackjack.

So, there really is no way around it—it’s a very different game. Not getting last is much more important than winning, which is also completely different than the rules you provided.

Many people on here want a weighted ELO system, which I agree with. It’s not the ranking that’s the problem, it how it’s done.
Waugapapa
Posts: 7
Joined: 04 January 2024, 05:10

Re: We need to have a talk about ELO

Post by Waugapapa »

aesche wrote: 15 May 2024, 08:58 Because, pretty certainly, your actual problem here is not the ELO system, but that in these games the other players, to some degree, are flexible whom to play against, and that this doesnt always match with whom you think they should play against. That will never be the case, no matter how you implement the rewards. So maybe better play cooperative or 2 player/team games, or games with less flexibility whom to play against (good luck finding that).
No, it’s the ELO system. The way it works completely changes the goal of the game from winning to avoiding last place at all costs.

You can *win* the game if you only have one point left, and everyone else is ahead of you. But only *when everyone else is trying to win*. As soon as the mentality is “I just want to keep my spot” your chances of coming back are almost zero.

Completely. Different. Game.

By all means, build a ranking system. Just one that doesn’t change the game. Not sure ELO is the right fit.
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