Two player version feels really bad

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jeff1010322
Posts: 1
Joined: 25 January 2021, 21:09

Two player version feels really bad

Post by jeff1010322 »

I am surprised this game is listed as allowing 2 players because it makes no sense as a two player game. I feel like this game was never play tested as two players because it definitely does not work.

In a two player game you have no incentive to not pick the best card. If you pick the best card and the opponent doesn't then you get it, if you don't pick it then you give the opponent the best card when you get something that is worse. In a 3+ player game the dynamic changes a ton as there are obvious strategic choices to predict your opponents and take a worse card that doesn't get cancelled out.

Ultimately, I don't mind if 2 player variant stays, but I think Arena mode needs to at least use 3 players.
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ufm
Posts: 1327
Joined: 06 January 2017, 08:38

Re: Two player version feels really bad

Post by ufm »

Well, game experience may vary by its player numbers.
But I fully agree some (if not a lot of) games are better with multiplayers than 2p, like this one.
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Lukeing_good
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Joined: 13 August 2020, 06:04

Re: Two player version feels really bad

Post by Lukeing_good »

Agree that arena should not be a 2 player competition
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caiopsoares
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 April 2021, 02:05

Re: Two player version feels really bad

Post by caiopsoares »

Gurus were crazy...
DJBisdaGOAT
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Joined: 15 December 2022, 16:29

Re: Two player version feels really bad

Post by DJBisdaGOAT »

I honestly think that it's crazy that people think 2p is so easy. If it were truly that easy, everyone who plays 2p should be 700 elo or higher. Some people claim that all you have to do it pick the best card. I would love to see someone try that on a couple of players and I can almost guarentee it won't work. And until someone can prove otherwise, 2p is the most strategic and should be arena.
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ufm
Posts: 1327
Joined: 06 January 2017, 08:38

Re: Two player version feels really bad

Post by ufm »

This is not a matter of difficulty or strategy. The experience is just not good enough.
e.g. BGG recommendation rate by player count
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caiopsoares
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 April 2021, 02:05

Re: Two player version feels really bad

Post by caiopsoares »

DJBisdaGOAT wrote: 13 February 2023, 11:06 I honestly think that it's crazy that people think 2p is so easy. If it were truly that easy, everyone who plays 2p should be 700 elo or higher. Some people claim that all you have to do it pick the best card. I would love to see someone try that on a couple of players and I can almost guarentee it won't work. And until someone can prove otherwise, 2p is the most strategic and should be arena.
Nobody has said it is easy... But it become obvious...
DJBisdaGOAT
Posts: 3
Joined: 15 December 2022, 16:29

Re: Two player version feels really bad

Post by DJBisdaGOAT »

jeff1010322 wrote: 26 July 2021, 16:15 I am surprised this game is listed as allowing 2 players because it makes no sense as a two player game. I feel like this game was never play tested as two players because it definitely does not work.

In a two player game you have no incentive to not pick the best card. If you pick the best card and the opponent doesn't then you get it, if you don't pick it then you give the opponent the best card when you get something that is worse. In a 3+ player game the dynamic changes a ton as there are obvious strategic choices to predict your opponents and take a worse card that doesn't get cancelled out.

Ultimately, I don't mind if 2 player variant stays, but I think Arena mode needs to at least use 3 players.
Clearly states that you have no incentive to not pick the "best card"
DJBisdaGOAT
Posts: 3
Joined: 15 December 2022, 16:29

Re: Two player version feels really bad

Post by DJBisdaGOAT »

And to prove what I said before, all you have to do is go look at top level games. Even 1st vs 2nd place games are decisive more than half of the time.
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Direful
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Joined: 08 July 2021, 18:59

Re: Two player version feels really bad

Post by Direful »

My experience playing Go Nuts for Donuts comes from both party settings (3-6 players) and competitive settings (2 players). I have played all variations both in person and on BGA. I have gotten Top 3 all time ranking in BGA Go Nuts for Donuts but mostly playing 2 player, though I generally find the 3-5 player variations more fun and enjoyable.

Here are my thoughts:

3-6 player Donuts is great for a relatively quick, fun, and casual game.

For the large majority of casual players, the most enjoyable form of Donuts is what I call "party mode" or 3-6 players. Having more players (especially for the 5-6 player modes) adds a significant amount of variability to the game as it is near impossible to predict what other players will do. Most of this game comes down to chance or luck, but it is quite fun and exciting when you manage to pull off a victory. Given the high variability, even inexperienced players have a shot at winning.

2 player Donuts is best viewed as a competitive, strategic, and some cases psychological game.

At the high levels, 2 player Donuts is a very different game than 3-6 player Donuts. Since there is only one opponent, you can fairly judge what your opponent is likely to want to play and what Donuts they want to pick. At the high levels, this is a game where it comes down to out strategizing your opponent and taking calculated risks when it favors you.

Some have complained that you would always just pick the best card. However, it is not always clear what is the best, and as the game progresses, what is best will change depending on the cards remaining in the deck and the situation you and your opponent are in. Part of the skill of the game in 2 player Donuts is to get an edge over your opponent and defend it and/or take a calculated risk (e.g. taking a chocolate donut or or early maple) to potentially gain an advantage. You need to out think your opponent and have a good understanding of probability (what cards remain in the deck and are likely to appear) in order to have success in 2 player Donuts.

Overall, in the context of a competitive game format like BGA Arena, I think 2 player Donuts is the best version of the game for a competitive setting. Two player Donuts is a competitive game, one very different from 3-6 player Donuts. That is okay. For those that like the "party game" style of 3-6 player Donuts, I would encourage you to continue playing those games outside of Arena.

It doesn't seem to make sense to get frustrated that a single season of Go Nuts for Donuts Arena is 2 player. Given that ever single prior season of Donuts Arena before this was 3-6 player, please let those that enjoy 2 player Donuts (even if they are in the minority) enjoy this season.

Thank you.
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