private chat in multiplayer games

[RicardoRix]

So where in Terra Mystica rules does it say no negotiation?

[N_Faker]

So where in Terra Mystica rules does it say no negotiation?

Irregardless of the differing opinions between you and OP on Terra Mystica. The thread's topic is about the use of private messages in cases in which it isn't desired.

Stop trying to derail this thread.

[RicardoRix]

Terra Mystica was the game used by OP as an example.
They were using Private Messaging to negotiate.

How exactly am I not on Topic? Why exactly are you trying to silence me?

[Liallan]

I don't think there is any point in any such measures, it may just create needless hostility and player reports. And I would expect that the vast majority would be innocent of any cheating by using on-site PMs.
If someone wants to cheat in such a way, they would have a multitude of other ways rather than the on-site private messaging.

Agreed. Like two friends are just chatting away about something totally innocent, and that would really spam the chat to have a message every time. It would be difficult to find the real messages, and I agree it could make people suspicious and therefore hostile.

[Liallan]

So where in Terra Mystica rules does it say no negotiation?

Terra Mystica was the game used by OP as an example.
They were using Private Messaging to negotiate.

How exactly am I not on Topic? Why exactly are you trying to silence me?

I'll admit up front I don't know much about Terra Mystica, but I think I can still address a couple of things. The general description on BGG does not indicate that any negotiation is involved in this game. I also pulled up the rules and did a search for "negotiate" and "negotiation" and found neither. I also glanced through the sections of the rules and found nothing related to it. (It appears to be much area control/influence/building type stuff) And lastly did a search on "trading" and found a Trading House, which seems to supply points (and maybe coins??), but nothing about actual trading. So I don't see that it's part of the game.

So then we get to the point about the rules not stating that you can't negotiate. That's a general misconception a lot of people have and that you need to re-think. (Not trying to be insulting by saying that. It's just reality, because you're going to learn many rules incorrectly by thinking that way.) The rules are responsible for telling you what you can do in a game. There's a gazillion different things you can't do in a game but the rules could never possibly tell you all of them. You can't negotiate in most games, but the rules aren't going to say that. And even in games that allow for negotiation, it doesn't mean you can discuss/give away everything privately to an opponent.

I'm not trying to silence you, but I do think you're off the mark with asking where in TM's rule it says no negotiating. It doesn't say you can, therefore you can't. TM was used as an example of a non-coop game, nothing more. It's about the general concept of people talking about the game and giving things away, etc. outside the public area (chat) of the game.

[RicardoRix]

Slightly flummoxed.
We're talking about games like Terra Mystica, but not Terra Mystica, then exactly what games are we discussing then??

If you ever play a game in real-life, then are you telling me that you all sit there in silence and take your turn?
A fairly innocuous example maybe, "That's a big army you've got there Fred".
The underlying message being - "Everyone else, let's attack Fred otherwise he's going to get too much of an advantage and win".
You can of course have subtle comments and everything in-between full blown conversation tactics like, "Let's team up and take everyone else out", or "You do that, and I won't attack you next turn".
I am sure that you all have examples and experiences of this, and also all game designers would have experience of this too.
So are you suggesting that they would fail to mention anything in the rules? Yeah, that dog don't hunt.
Love letter does have a rule to suggest that players may NOT give away information that they know because it is against the spirit of the game. So when needs must there are rules to say what can or can't be done.

If there is a no rule to say negation can't take place then fine, otherwise it is allowed. Just like it's allowed to go to the toilet or eat a snack.
You want to play and introduce your own house rules then fine, but currently it's NOT cheating.

[Liallan]

This thread is not discussing Terra Mystica specifically. OP said, quote "There are situations in mulitplayer non-cooperative games (like Terra Mystica)...."

This is referring to multiplayer non-cooperative games, and putting Terra Mystica in parenthesis was just an example, that's all. That doesn't mean the thread is specifically about that game or that that's the only game this could pertain to.

And yes I discuss stuff when I play in person. I might note that someone has an awful big farm to themselves in Carcassonne. Of course there's no rules against general table talk. That's not what is meant by negotiations. Talking to someone in private chat and giving away information is cheating, making suggestions like that is doing it behind someone's back. That's not the same as saying things out loud to everyone. (And sometimes what is appropriate in person with your group, your friends, may not be appropriate here.) Talk about being flummoxed.

You brought up Diplomacy as an example of a game that encourages this. And that game lists "negotiation" as a game mechanic (meaning certainly it's listed in the rules). This is not the same as casual table talk that just drops hints about who is ahead, etc. This is negotiation:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame ... egotiation
This is not allowed unless it's in the rules. (And yes, sometimes game rules will include things you are not allowed to do. I never said otherwise. Try having this debate on BGG and see how far you get.)

Regardless of all of the above, this rule for this site is in the FAQs as things not allowed:
"Communicate with another player about the game privately (for example with an instant messenging app)."
If private negotiations were allowed by game rules, that would be different. But that is not what is being referred to by OP.

[RicardoRix]

This all seems a very, very grey area between what games your actually talking about and what type of message would deem to be unfair.
I think you're going to have a extremely hard time trying to police this, and a lot of reports from bad loser types. Which if you ask me are more annoying than people trying to steal wins.

Are you're saying that public negotiation is OK, but private negotiation is an offense?
During real-life games you can easily get a knowing look or nod, even if just to add emphasis which would be the same as a private message. Again, something that happens ALL the time between a group of friends.

I've just noticed coup will be a new game added to BGA.

So a common dialogue from this game would be:

If you attack me then I will assassinate you next turn.
OR
If you don't attack me then I'll attack Player C instead of you.
What kind of negotiation is that? BGG doesn't have this game listed with a negotiation tag.