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Re: Patchwork doesn't have luck: there should be 0 luck in the game label, not 3.
Posted: 21 August 2021, 10:06
by ufm
Or does it? The game is not strongly solved yet. Can you completely identify which setup favors who and why?
There may be unbalanced setups, sure. But it's a possibility, not a proven fact.
Re: Patchwork doesn't have luck: there should be 0 luck in the game label, not 3.
Posted: 21 August 2021, 10:54
by dschingis27
First of all, it doesn't need to be a proven fact. This thread is about the labelling of the luck factor, so we need to find our best judgement. I'd say that almost any experienced player with Elo>300 will agree that there is luck in the setup.
See this strategy thread on BGG.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/170395 ... -stalemate
One of the highest rated players on the Patchwork App argues (by his juggement) that "... probably 25% of the games give one player a fairly significant advantage based on turn order (fairly significant is ambiguous, so let's take it to mean 4 to 7 buttons). Finally, maybe 10% of the games will give one player a quite substantial advantage (8+ buttons with extreme cases being upwards of 15+ button advantages)."
Second,
it is more or less proven that there are unbalanced setups and usually you can identify them. The programmer of the super-hard AI for the Patchwork App stated (and I quote from the thread linked above): "The starting configuration matters a great deal and can bias the game quite a bit. And it doesn't take a perfect combo to do it either. I've had the AI play several thousand games against itself. Overall, player 1 won 53% of the time (about the same as chess's first player advantage). However, if the 0-cost cross piece is in the first 3 available, the first player wins 77% of the time! A few other pieces can give a strong advantage too."
Re: Patchwork doesn't have luck: there should be 0 luck in the game label, not 3.
Posted: 21 August 2021, 11:08
by ufm
Well, that qualifies as a proven fact. So it's not 0, but 1 or 2 maybe.
Re: Patchwork doesn't have luck: there should be 0 luck in the game label, not 3.
Posted: 21 August 2021, 11:25
by Een
Independently of the discussion about the proper values, these values are defined by the developer, so the way to request a change is to submit a suggestion to the developer in the BGA bugs/suggestions tracker
https://boardgamearena.com/bugs
Re: Patchwork doesn't have luck: there should be 0 luck in the game label, not 3.
Posted: 22 August 2021, 20:56
by FSKFSK
I would use a different definition of luck. Not "how randomized is the setup" but rather "how often will a weaker player beat a stronger player through luck".
If you play a single hand of poker, then of course it's going to be 100% luck who wins.
If you play an 8 hour session of poker, then skill is going to matter a lot.