THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

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sorryimlikethis
Posts: 235
Joined: 16 September 2021, 13:04

Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by sorryimlikethis »

Dinandino wrote: 11 December 2022, 00:17 Let me first say that I don't think that this is a widespread problem. It can definitely happen, but according to my (humble) opinion most players make the moves that they think are best for them.

However just after reading this thread I played this game.
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=325422288
Its the last round of the game and I am the start player. I have materials for farm development but cultivation gives me 11 points, expecting to get fencing back. I know I could have played differently and put myself into a much less risky situation, but I'll come back to this. The player after me (who is currently 3rd on points) has two 3-points moves (urgent wish and grain utilization) and (I think) five 2-point moves (one of which is fencing).  And as you probably guessed he picked the 2-point fencing move. Next two players choses their best move (farm development and house development), leaving me unable to fence and/or renovate. I do get urgent whish back and we are back at the player after me. This time he has still one 3-point move left and quite a number of 2 point moves. This time he does opt to take the grain utilization and not decides not to block a 3-point plow from teal.

Maybe I should have just fenced first action the round before and don't end up in this situation. Probably the best way to avoid king-making is by making sure you can't get blocked.
Extremely harsh to criticise red for this move. It's not intentional kingmaking. It's not even a bad move for them.
They took fencing to block you for sure.
Do you think they took it to ensure you wouldn't get 1st place?
Or because it's their best chance at getting 2nd place?

At the time it happened you were both on ~20 points. Yeah, maybe they were never going to catch you anyway. I would absolutely give myself a chance at 2nd place for the cost of only 1 point with a guaranteed 3rd.
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jehlinger
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Joined: 01 May 2020, 20:29

Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by jehlinger »

Dinandino wrote: 11 December 2022, 00:17 Let me first say that I don't think that this is a widespread problem. It can definitely happen, but according to my (humble) opinion most players make the moves that they think are best for them.

However just after reading this thread I played this game.
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=325422288
Its the last round of the game and I am the start player. I have materials for farm development but cultivation gives me 11 points, expecting to get fencing back. I know I could have played differently and put myself into a much less risky situation, but I'll come back to this. The player after me (who is currently 3rd on points) has two 3-points moves (urgent wish and grain utilization) and (I think) five 2-point moves (one of which is fencing).  And as you probably guessed he picked the 2-point fencing move. Next two players choses their best move (farm development and house development), leaving me unable to fence and/or renovate. I do get urgent whish back and we are bacemeonk at the player after me. This time he has still one 3-point move left and quite a number of 2 point moves. This time he does opt to take the grain utilization and not decides not to block a 3-point plow from teal.

Maybe I should have just fenced first action the round before and don't end up in this situation. Probably the best way to avoid king-making is by making sure you can't get blocked.
Hi hi, your game is another great example of what I hate, I cant get into red players mind but what she did was totally unsportsman unless she didnt realize the situation (there is allways the room for the honest mistake I guess). The moment you 1st pick plow/sow (which was the correct move hands down) she is 3rd place no matter what, her maximum possible score is 33, 33 wont her 1st or 2nd that is a fact and its clear at that point. Since she cant get 1st or 2nd she should try to secure 3rd I guess, what I am sure is that interfering in who wins the gamer is mega lame and super unsportsman, she decides she will just block fences and lower her score (her best path is 3vp sow followed by 3vp family growth since you cant fg on your 2nd pawn, after that any 2vp and she gets he 33) but as I stated before people just cant accept their fate and they have to do something "creative"/"pro" as blocking your fences. The path she took didnt max her score and couldnt get her to 2nd or 1st, just sunk someone in the process, And I am sure she didnt apologise or say anything, because it was "pro" and she would do it again and its wrong, so very wrong.
Maybe if she did some shennanigans to block the 4th player to secure 3rd it would be less lame, but lame still in my eyes, but kingmaking (by accident even) at the cost of worsening your score (although she ended 3rd still, which doesnt matter) shouldnt be done. She has 464 elo so I am sure she saw 3vp 3vp 2vp but decided sinking you was better, and that is wrong, and is all I am complaing about.
Thanks a lot for uploading game and helping me with realizing I am not THAT crazy, hehe = )
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jehlinger
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Joined: 01 May 2020, 20:29

Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by jehlinger »

sorryimlikethis wrote: 11 December 2022, 03:08
Dinandino wrote: 11 December 2022, 00:17 Let me first say that I don't think that this is a widespread problem. It can definitely happen, but according to my (humble) opinion most players make the moves that they think are best for them.

However just after reading this thread I played this game.
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=325422288
Its the last round of the game and I am the start player. I have materials for farm development but cultivation gives me 11 points, expecting to get fencing back. I know I could have played differently and put myself into a much less risky situation, but I'll come back to this. The player after me (who is currently 3rd on points) has two 3-points moves (urgent wish and grain utilization) and (I think) five 2-point moves (one of which is fencing).  And as you probably guessed he picked the 2-point fencing move. Next two players choses their best move (farm development and house development), leaving me unable to fence and/or renovate. I do get urgent whish back and we are back at the player after me. This time he has still one 3-point move left and quite a number of 2 point moves. This time he does opt to take the grain utilization and not decides not to block a 3-point plow from teal.

Maybe I should have just fenced first action the round before and don't end up in this situation. Probably the best way to avoid king-making is by making sure you can't get blocked.
Extremely harsh to criticise red for this move. It's not intentional kingmaking. It's not even a bad move for them.
They took fencing to block you for sure.
Do you think they took it to ensure you wouldn't get 1st place?
Or because it's their best chance at getting 2nd place?

At the time it happened you were both on ~20 points. Yeah, maybe they were never going to catch you anyway. I would absolutely give myself a chance at 2nd place for the cost of only 1 point with a guaranteed 3rd.
Her best path was 3vp 3vp 2vp and it was quite clear, she is 450 elo so she saw it for sure, she just thought blocking fences might magically remove her from 3rd I guess, but that wasnt posiible and kingmaked in the process. If you analize a bit deeper by not taking fences she guaranteed the other 3vp action comes back, so firs pick sow guarantees second pick fg and then any 2vp maxes her max her score (which happens to make her 3rd anyway, but a gentlemans 3rd, not a lame kingmaking 3rd)
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Lumin_S
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Joined: 09 October 2018, 00:51

Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by Lumin_S »

Jehlinger, I do not think that what you describe as "kingmaking" is a problem with the Agricola Arena community at all. The main problem is people who quit in the middle of games when things aren't going their way.

IMO, once a move is noticed as potentially kingmaking, it is equally as kingmaking to take that move or take a different one (in other words, the opposite of kingmaking is still kingmaking.)

If you think that players should only fight for 1st place, then ranked multiplayer games on BGA are probably not for you. Players certainly have a right to try to maximize their Elo rating, right?

Regarding your earlier points about being blocked, you have to acknowledge that you are responsible for ending up in a blockable position. Some strategies in Agricola are riskier than others. If you don't like feeling like you're being blocked by a 3rd party, play solo or 2-player.
Dinandino
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Joined: 17 August 2012, 10:42

Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by Dinandino »

First of all, I think I need to apologize. My intention by posting was never to offend somebody, more to show a move which in my local gaming group is frowned upon. However I also understand that people's goal for the game can differ (and also change throughout the game).

Maybe most of all it shows my frustration by thinking I had a clear shot at winning and then getting "blocked"  my somebody and getting "only" second.

Lumin_S wrote: 12 December 2022, 00:50 The main problem is people who quit in the middle of games when things aren't going their way.
Completely agree.
jooool
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Joined: 06 August 2021, 19:00

Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by jooool »

I think a common thought by some is that you should not be blocked from someone who can't beat you, however I think that many people use this as an excuse to being greedy.
If you have a move that is you best move, but you also want your second best move, you can take the second best move and thinking the best move will wheel, due to the other people not needing as much. For me though, if someone greed and take their second best move which might be my best move, I will often block them out of spite if I only lose out of 1 or 2 points and wont change my total outcome by much.

This game is always a risk and reward play trying to figure out what moves you can or cannot miss out on and of course it can be frustrating when other players don't play "logically" from your own perspective, but if everyone did what you yourself wanted every game it would basically be like playing single player, not very dynamic and fun.

I have not ever had a person block me on this site which i did not somehow have a feeling it might happen or even expected to get blocked.
make sure you set up your game so you can't get blocked on your important moves and you will still win :)
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RicardoRix
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Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by RicardoRix »

jooool wrote: 04 July 2023, 13:04 For me though, if someone greed and take their second best move which might be my best move, I will often block them out of spite if I only lose out of 1 or 2 points and wont change my total outcome by much.
That's a losing mentality.
jooool
Posts: 14
Joined: 06 August 2021, 19:00

Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by jooool »

I should probably clarify that this is strictly in round 13-14 when I can count the outcome with high certainty and I know the price and the benefit.
This is rarely something I have to do against higher skilled players as they also tend to know how the risk and reward works.
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euklid314
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Joined: 06 April 2020, 22:56

Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by euklid314 »

I do not agree, Ricardo. If player X, fighting for 1st place, takes his 2nd best move first and thus pushes another player Y (whose 1st best move has now been taken away by player X) from 3rd to 4th place, he should not be surprised if that player Y now takes away the best move of player X.

If player X could only win if he gets both 1st and 2nd best move, it might still be correct for him to start with the 2nd best move - if his chances to cycle 1st best move are better than cycling 2nd best move. But then, in this situation player X was never the favorite to win this game anyways. If he needs 2 moves to win the game and both moves can be theoretically blocked, you have to expect it to happen...
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RicardoRix
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Re: THIS is what is so wrong with Agricola ARENA community

Post by RicardoRix »

You play however you like (obviously). And you can make scenario's where you're actually bettering your position (not the same situation). But if you play a blocking move simply out of spite, or because someone else is winning, it is simply that - a losing mentality.

It's probably happened to us all, but when you're in the lead or if you ever see an intentional blocking move for the sake of it. It is hurting the player who plays the block more. They obviously don't realise it, but It's a losing mentality. You can either learn from a loss, or you can cry about it.

You can look at it the other way, you've intentionally helped the other 2 players.
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