Board Game Arena

I almost do not chat anymore

hfyr wrote: ↑03 June 2023, 17:24 people are being so aggressive and toxic :O
chill bro?

Coop games generally have a toxic gamer problem (usually in the form of an alpha player). When creating Hanabi the creator(s) were clever in that no one has a complete picture avoiding A.P effect. However, in doing so it created something much worse. When playing in person/with friends you base your instincts on what sort of play styles your friends go for making it a less logical but more rewarding game imho. Online that would be a complete mess leading to the convention system. This turns Hanabi into a "if I do A in way B then you do C" rather than a game with intuition. To get back to the main point, because online play is so regimented then any kind of mistake is seen as terrible and that is made even worse since if someone makes a mistake it looks obvious to you seeing their hand but not always obvious to them, and ranking to a lesser degree and it's not hard to see why Hanabi is so bad for toxicity. I'd go so far to say it's the worst of any coop game at a competitive level.

I hear what you're saying about toxicity and angry players, but I'll offer a hot take -- all the players at your tables are at fault for not clarifying their accepted conventions prior to starting play.

The only other semi-cooperative game I can think of which requires the players to all pledge their allegiance to a specific set of rules not listed on the rulebook is Bridge. In tournaments, players have to record their accepted bidding conventions in a booklet prior to the game start so everyone understands your bidding cues.

Now, you don't *have* to play with conventions in Hanabi, but you'll need at least a few to get consistently perfect scores. As such, nearly all players expect at least some conventions, which is why there's a "Conventions Used" dropdown option when creating games. If you disagree with the whole concept of conventions, and want to play more freestyle & loosey-goosey, then you're going to have to note that in your Presentation field when creating a game.

You don't have to play with the more complex clues, but unless you're playing one of the oddballs, players should be comfortable with the following basic conventions:

* Play the left-most clued card
* Number on chop is to save (unless not unique)
* Finesse
* Bluff
* No lying on bluffs (unless you plan on correcting the clue later before it bombs)
* Reverse
* If something can be a reverse, you have to assume that it is until proven otherwise
* Gentleman's Discards
* Good Touch Rule
* No early saves in multi-player (it's actually for play)

If you don't play with those basic conventions, and you don't care to learn them, and you don't advise your table of your alternative conventions, then I can understand why you're finding the general Hanabi player base toxic -- when players figure out mid-game that you're not playing with the basic conventions, they're stuck with you. I used to end games early if it was clear that a lower ranked Master simply had no clue how to finesse/bluff. I don't find those games enjoyable and I have other preferred ways to waste my time. Unfortunately, players can no longer simply concede without losing 10 ELO.

I posted this on the ELO thread, but I think it applies here:

If you're finding that you're disagreeing with players about how to interpret clues (particularly in 3+ player games), I highly recommend perusing H-Group's site. It's the most comprehensive Hanabi convention system around. Their more advanced conventions (like Layered and Clandestine) can be added in as your table's skill level increases. Most Masters on BGA play with H-group conventions -- even if they aren't aware of the source -- and Hanabi is better when everyone plays with the same conventions. You can play well enough without agreeing on the more complex conventions, but -- as you've experienced -- you're going to run into misunderstandings since you're actually speaking different dialects (like Mandarin and Cantonese both using the same writing)

Now, there's a difference between giving wrong/misleading/bad clues (and/or misinterpreting a good clue) and giving a subpar/inefficent clue. I think some people can be really quick to criticize subpar/inefficent clues and treat them as badly as a bad clue. But they are not the same. Bad clues cause bombs or require correction. Subpar/inefficent clues still work, but require more clues, delay play, or increase the loss of useful cards. Masters do commonly conflate the two, and bicker over subpar clues instead of gently coaching after the game. I will, however, admit to getting frustrated with bad clues/plays, but I'm equally quick to apologize when I've given a bad clue myself.

Some Masters get insulted when I send the following link because they don't think of themselves as "beginners" but it's just about making sure everyone has the same foundation. The site quickly advances to more complex clues, so just start with this:

https://hanabi.github.io/beginner

Hi,
I am really fed up with rude players who make insulting comments on chat as if we weren't there to read them.
Now as soon as that happens, I leave the game. but I realize that my reputation has gone down because of that!
iwould like BGA to take all this into account.

The digital implementation makes the game better IMO.

But people get angrier when don't know you.

Ideally, I'd play this digitally with friends.

Because it's a cooperative game and and if they think you're making a mistake, you're affecting their ELO. Apparently some people have such sad, small, and boring lives that their ELO scores on here are all they have to care about.

orgle wrote: ↑15 December 2023, 08:13 * No lying on bluffs (unless you plan on correcting the clue later before it bombs)

This one is interesting to me because on occasion I have lied on bluffs, with the full awareness that it's my responsibility to correct it later if need be and full intention of doing so, and have gotten yelled at because other players assume that it was not a lie, ergo they hold the card to make it true.

(For example, y1 is on the board. The player after me has a playable r1 at left. The player after them has a unique y4 on chop. I clue that player yellow, r1 gets played, and I go forward knowing that the third player thinks they're holding y3, so if y2 comes out I need to warn them otherwise, if they don't happen to get either a 3 or 4 clue in the interim anyway.

However, some people seem to assume that these types of lies mean they must be holding the missing y3 themselves, so they treat that card that was in their finesse position as touched.)

Personally I don't think a lying bluff promises anything layered unless and until the clue-giver declines to fix it later.

~

I would also add to your list, respond to finesses immediately, because while a genuine finesse can wait, waiting on a bluff can be disastrous, and you usually can't know which you've gotten.

~

Masters do commonly conflate the two, and bicker over subpar clues instead of gently coaching after the game. I will, however, admit to getting frustrated with bad clues/plays, but I'm equally quick to apologize when I've given a bad clue myself.

The key there, for me, is after the game. It's impossible to coach, question, complain, or even apologize during the game without giving out information about what you can see, and in so doing you taint the fairness of the game. I won't continue to participate if someone persists in doing this after being asked politely to stop (I don't quit or bomb, I just no longer play cards or otherwise seek to win).

Cbarbara wrote: ↑20 December 2023, 13:02 Hi,
I am really fed up with rude players who make insulting comments on chat as if we weren't there to read them.
Now as soon as that happens, I leave the game. but I realize that my reputation has gone down because of that!
iwould like BGA to take all this into account.

I don't advocate doing so, but it's not hard to 'abandon' a Hanabi game if you decide you're done with it in the face of aggressive/insulting chat, without losing karma points. Just deliberately bomb, max three more turns and you're done. This isn't and, I don't believe, can't be against the rules, as it can't be 100% clearly distinguished from honest mistakes by the mods.

I agree! Maybe this will help…. Nice people are welcome to friend me for Hanabi.


Here’s what I usually play:

Convention: Finesse with a foundation of Standard

Mode: Normal or Friendly (non-ELO)

Flamboyants: On

Lara8818 wrote: ↑19 January 2024, 06:18 I don't advocate doing so, but it's not hard to 'abandon' a Hanabi game if you decide you're done with it in the face of aggressive/insulting chat, without losing karma points. Just deliberately bomb, max three more turns and you're done. This isn't and, I don't believe, can't be against the rules, as it can't be 100% clearly distinguished from honest mistakes by the mods.

Please don't even bring up bombing to end the game as an option — I have reported people for bombing and recently, I'm not sure if the moderators either changed or are following some new moderating guidelines or now have Hanabi experience or what, but the last person I reported for bombing did get a karma penalty. Bombing will equally lose 10 ELO for both parties, and is the same as all parties agreeing to abandon for -10 points. Deliberate bombing to end the game doesn't benefit the bomber nor the other people at the table in any way, no matter the reason. If you really don't want to deal with or the other people aren't agreeing to abandon for the ELO loss, then just take the karma hit for quitting and RT them after so you don't run into them again. There are plenty of ways to get karma back quickly.

In either case, if the other person is being extremely rude, just go on autopilot and discard cards, even. If they dislike it, they'll be the one to bomb. You can report them for the rude comments and bombing after.

Sad to see so many people providing an interface for rude behavior