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zaperok0 wrote: ↑24 December 2024, 06:01 I am no admin but I could say crow's winrate is about 60% or less. And considering a bird banable I would say 90% winrate from my point of view

The house finch was at right around 50% winrate in 3 player games. 90% is an insane number.

I agree with banning of the crows, or at least the American one.

From all the games I had Crow(s) early and played them well (in Grassfield, with other many-eggs-nest birds), I won 9 out of 10.
So yes, they're not unbeatable, but IMO, they are ban-worthy.

I think I find the crows stronger than the Towhee and the Chipping Sparrow.

To the person who said they beat 2 (not very good) players playing both crows, wow... congrats.
But if someone doesn't play Crows, Ravens, Wood Duck well enough, while the adversary plays the game decent enough (plus being luckier with the draw/pick), they lose either way (the former one).
So I don't get the point.

KoalaFox wrote: ↑24 December 2024, 21:21

zaperok0 wrote: ↑24 December 2024, 06:01 I am no admin but I could say crow's winrate is about 60% or less. And considering a bird banable I would say 90% winrate from my point of view

The house finch was at right around 50% winrate in 3 player games. 90% is an insane number.

Nono. What I meant was for a bird to be considered to be banable should have around 90% winrate. Like woodduck. That bird was insane

There will always be a "best bird" out there so we can't keep banning whichever one that is. The big 4 and the wood duck were birds that you'd have either be playing someone who was simply not very good or them getting those birds had to be the last bit of good fortune they got that game in order for you to win.

Crows are simply not that at all. They might be the best birds remaining, but only a bit more than the other good birds. Quite simply, they don't completely replace any reliance on gaining food the traditional way because they're so slow at it and you often run out of egg space if you keep banging your grassland for food. Sure, crow plus an indigo bunting or towhee can be deadly, but that's a crow plus another bird. Which should not be the consideration.

I have posted a lot of stats of birds here, from over 4000 boards in 2 player games randomly taken from BGA:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/338978 ... -boards-2p

There are no birds with win rates remotely close to 90%.

When they are played, the Power 4 birds win around 70% of the time when played in the first column, which is the highest for any birds, although except the Chipping Sparrow is similar when played in the forest. Players with ELO of at least 300 win around 75% of games when they play one of the Power 4 birds in the first column.

Here are the best birds in terms of win percentage when played in the first column. These are the only birds with win percentages of at least 55%.

72 Common Raven (G) Discard 1 [egg] from any of your other birds to gain 2 [wild] from the supply.
68 Chipping Sparrow (F) Lay 1 [egg] on any bird.
67 Franklin's Gull (G) Discard 1 [egg] to draw 2 [card].
67 Killdeer (G) Discard 1 [egg] to draw 2 [card].
65 Painted Whitestart (F) Gain 1 [worm] from the supply.
63 Barn Swallow (W) Tuck 1 [card] from your hand behind this bird. If you do, draw 1 [card].
63 American Robin (G) Tuck 1 [card] from your hand behind this bird. If you do, draw 1 [card].
62 Tree Swallow (W) Tuck 1 [card] from your hand behind this bird. If you do, draw 1 [card].
61 Eastern Phoebe (F) All players gain 1 [worm] from the supply.
60 Brant (W) Draw the 3 face-up [card] in the bird tray.
60 Spotted Towhee (G) Gain 1 [seed] from the supply.
60 Common Yellowthroat (W) Draw 2 [card]. If you do, discard 1 [card] from your hand at the end of your turn.
59 Burrowing Owl (G) Roll all dice not in birdfeeder. If any are [rodent], cache 1 [rodent] from the supply on this bird.
59 Mountain Bluebird (G) Play an additional bird in your [grassland]. Pay its normal cost.
59 American Redstart (F) Gain 1 [die] from the birdfeeder.
59 Chipping Sparrow (G) Lay 1 [egg] on any bird.
58 Western Meadowlark (G) All players lay 1 [egg] on any 1 [ground] bird. You may lay 1 [egg] on 1 additional [ground] bird.
58 Blue-Gray Gnatcatcher (F) Gain 1 [worm] from the supply.
58 Red-Eyed Vireo (F) Play an additional bird in your [forest]. Pay its normal cost.
57 Fish Crow (G) Discard 1 [egg] from any of your other birds to gain 1 [wild] from the supply.
57 Downy Woodpecker (F) Play an additional bird in your [forest]. Pay its normal cost.
57 Barn Swallow (G) Tuck 1 [card] from your hand behind this bird. If you do, draw 1 [card].
57 California Condor (F) Draw 2 new bonus cards and keep 1.
57 Mallard (W) Draw 1 [card].
57 Forster's Tern (W) Draw 1 [card]. If you do, discard 1 [card] from your hand at the end of your turn.
57 Purple Martin (G) Tuck 1 [card] from your hand behind this bird. If you do, draw 1 [card].
57 Juniper Titmouse (F) Cache 1 [seed] from the supply on this bird.
57 Red-Breasted Merganser (W) Draw 2 [card]. If you do, discard 1 [card] from your hand at the end of your turn.
57 Chihuahuan Raven (G) Discard 1 [egg] from any of your other birds to gain 2 [wild] from the supply.
56 American Crow (G) Discard 1 [egg] from any of your other birds to gain 1 [wild] from the supply.
56 Black Tern (W) Draw 1 [card]. If you do, discard 1 [card] from your hand at the end of your turn.
55 Yellow-Bellied Sapsucker (F) Gain 1 [worm] from the supply.
55 Mourning Dove (G) Lay 1 [egg] on this bird.
55 Baird's Sparrow (G) Lay 1 [egg] on any bird.
55 Clark's Grebe (W) Draw 1 [card]. If you do, discard 1 [card] from your hand at the end of your turn.
55 Northern Harrier (W) Look at a [card] from the deck. If less than 75cm, tuck it behind this bird. If not, discard it.
55 Carolina Wren (F) Draw 2 [card].

Players with ELO of at least 350 win only 60% of games when they play American Crow in the first column.

Ban the crows?

WHY?

Full disclosure: I am somewhat new here. Member since 2020, but usually have played steam games. I'm switching to BGA because it's superior in (almost) every way.

I have played 1000+ games of wingspan, but very few without at least the EE expansion and several hundred with Oceania. When I played a couple of automa games recently, I was very frustrated and annoyed at how agitating the game is without the Oceania improved mat and Nectar.

I do not see the Crows as being broken cards. I agree that the power 4 are broken. I agree that Wood duck (in the forest) is broken. Is that the 5th member of the power 5? It's not banned, is it? Just ban it in the forest.

But there are so many cards that I would say are as good as the crow or better. But maybe a lot of them are EE cards. Will we get EE soon here?
I never get excited about getting the crow. Cards that get me excited:

The Ruff
The Chiffcaff
Bonelli's Eagle
Eastern Imperial Eagle
Any card that gives me bonus cards
Tuck and draw cards (These are so good. A point, AND a card swap?)
Tuck and lay egg (bushtit, etc).
Any card that lets me draw 2 and discard 1 (which, ponce you have at least 1 bad card, basically means draw 2 without having to pay an egg).

Heck, even the pileated woodpecker is rather deadly.

I care not when my opponent plays the crow. Big whoop. The player often ends up short on eggs and is sluggish in getting the food it needs.

AMUSING SIDE NOTE:


On BGG, many people argue that even the ravens are not overpowered (they're wrong, obviously), and that if you cannot beat a raven, you're just not good enough. (I strongly disagree with them).

I just think it's funny that we have people on one site sayin the ravens are no big deal and on another, we have people asking to ban the crows.

I have exactly the same opinion as @detlefchef11. Banning the big 4 + forest wood duck is perfectly understandable, they are over the top and not fun to play with (or against). For sure the crows are among the best remaining birds, but they must be played with a minimum of skill, all alone they are powerless. Personally, I'm a bit more worried when my opponent plays a 1st-round chipping sparrow, towhee or eastern phoebe because they are good for most of egg end-round goals. Wingspan is also a bit based on luck (especially the base game), that's how it is, so if you have the good birds to make a powerful grassland engine with a crow, you are certainly good for victory even if you are not the best player in the world.
If we begin to ban every best remaining bird, alright, let's play with loggerhead shrike and let's have fun... or not

@FrankJones : Yes, I agree with you. Though, the crows are less powerful when you play with the European and Oceanian expansions because the expansions are more versatile and you have many more ways to gain points (many powerful birds that give you food, big point birds like the two eagles, teal/yellow powers, new easy bonus cards, nectar...), and more end-round goals which are less based on laying eggs and good grassland engines. Well, about the ravens, as a 500-600 ELO player here, I really don't have fun when I see one in my hand or my opponent's hand. You can beat a raven, but you need great cards as well and much skill, especially in the base game. They are definitely overpowered imo.

Kakapogoglu wrote: ↑07 February 2025, 10:41 I have exactly the same opinion as @detlefchef11. Banning the big 4 + forest wood duck is perfectly understandable, they are over the top and not fun to play with (or against). For sure the crows are among the best remaining birds, but they must be played with a minimum of skill, all alone they are powerless. Personally, I'm a bit more worried when my opponent plays a 1st-round chipping sparrow, towhee or eastern phoebe because they are good for most of egg end-round goals. Wingspan is also a bit based on luck (especially the base game), that's how it is, so if you have the good birds to make a powerful grassland engine with a crow, you are certainly good for victory even if you are not the best player in the world.
If we begin to ban every best remaining bird, alright, let's play with loggerhead shrike and let's have fun... or not

@FrankJones : Yes, I agree with you. Though, the crows are less powerful when you play with the European and Oceanian expansions because the expansions are more versatile and you have many more ways to gain points (many powerful birds that give you food, big point birds like the two eagles, teal/yellow powers, new easy bonus cards, nectar...), and more end-round goals which are less based on laying eggs and good grassland engines. Well, about the ravens, as a 500-600 ELO player here, I really don't have fun when I see one in my hand or my opponent's hand. You can beat a raven, but you need great cards as well and much skill, especially in the base game. They are definitely overpowered imo.

I'll be brief.

I agree with everything you said.

If I can digress for a moment..

WHWRE ARE the EXPANSIONS??

I HATE steam. They are garbage. and yet:

Playing wingspan without the expansions is excruciating. So frustrating. Terrible starting hands. Low scores. I won a game 74-71. WTF is that ???? Why do we not yet have the expansions ???? Draw one card. Gain on food. Agonizing.

As for the crows. Are people being serious here?

Okay - you have a crow. I have the Barn Swallow in my grassland. Anyone who thinks the Crow (in NON Oceania) is Better than the barn swallow ... well.. I don't know what to say.

Even WITH Oceania, we have found the crows to be ... okay. A Strong forest engine will smoke a lame grassland crow any day.

And WHY is the wood duck banned? Just ban in from the forest.

BGA has no and won't get any permission to publish extention (except Easy-Start).

In real life we use all available cards and don't ban anyone. With such a big set of cards the luck is getting more influence... (my opinion). There are much more ways to create great engines, but with bad luck you won't get any nice bird... In average you get more points with extentions that's right, but you don't need a big score to have fun with wingspan.

Crows should stay - they are strong but beatable - if my oppent plays one early - it's a challenge, not lost at all

bergerOUS wrote: ↑07 February 2025, 13:57 BGA has no and won't get any permission to publish extention (except Easy-Start).

That's disappointing. Has anyone stated the reason? Most of the games I have played thus far seem to have expansions, or are working on them.