Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

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RoyalRook
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Joined: 29 March 2024, 02:25

Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by RoyalRook »

charliec247 wrote: 06 January 2025, 02:45 I can also vouch for 2p and 3p being vastly different games. I mainly play 2p and I ventured into 3p once and got so thrown off because I'm so used to the pace of the 2p game. I also agree with 3P being really fun only if all 3 are similarly skilled or at least know what they are doing. I play 5p IRL, in a group where there are 2 strong players, one okay player, and 2 weak players. The card quality that you get each game varies wildly depends on who is passing to you, and whoever sits in between the two weaker players will always get a bonkers draft.

Anyway I prefer 2p on here because I get the least downtime between turns and given that most of the time I play on my phone having less things to keep track of is better for me given the small screen. As for the "most competitive setting"? IMHO in any game it has to be 2P. Not only does it make targeted attacks viable, whereas in 3+P other players get off free and thus you can't be as aggressive as possible with this strategy, but there's no kingmaking in 2P. Plus, if it is clear who's going to win, we can concede early to save time instead of having to play it out. Yes there are merits to getting 2nd but a heads up game is more clear cut and you have full control of the outcome rather than having a non-related third party screw up your standings.
Well said. It is truly frustrating when king making happens to you in an intense game. In my last game for example, I somehow was in a winning position against a turn 1 earth cat, early AI then Anti grav monster that also supported by protected hab and media group. Yes, you guessed it, the third put a greenery during the final conversion next to this player's city and I come in 2nd place by a point. It's maddening right?

I love 2p, you certainly have more control over the game without worrying about silly stuff like a king maker. BUT, what I was trying to argue is that if all three players are equally skilled and in a fair competitive environment; I believe 3p TM is a better game and has a higher skill ceiling. And if a format has a higher skill ceiling, then it is actually the superior competitive format. Imagine if there is a referee will disqualify a player for obvious kingmaking actions, and only certain elo are allow to participate. I am championing 3p theoratically is the superior competitive format. Of course, in our non Xmaslanding and all inclusive BGA arena world, 2p is certainly a fairer test of skill than 3p. If you don't have th stomach for it, sometimes 3p will drive you crazy.
Rutabaga00
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Joined: 13 October 2022, 20:56

Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by Rutabaga00 »

RoyalRook wrote: 06 January 2025, 04:11
Well said. It is truly frustrating when king making happens to you in an intense game. In my last game for example, I somehow was in a winning position against a turn 1 earth cat, early AI then Anti grav monster that also supported by protected hab and media group. Yes, you guessed it, the third put a greenery during the final conversion next to this player's city and I come in 2nd place by a point. It's maddening right?

I love 2p, you certainly have more control over the game without worrying about silly stuff like a king maker. BUT, what I was trying to argue is that if all three players are equally skilled and in a fair competitive environment; I believe 3p TM is a better game and has a higher skill ceiling. And if a format has a higher skill ceiling, then it is actually the superior competitive format. Imagine if there is a referee will disqualify a player for obvious kingmaking actions, and only certain elo are allow to participate. I am championing 3p theoratically is the superior competitive format. Of course, in our non Xmaslanding and all inclusive BGA arena world, 2p is certainly a fairer test of skill than 3p. If you don't have th stomach for it, sometimes 3p will drive you crazy.
Kingmaking could happen, it sucks, but is it that common ?

But i find interesting this part, first, because its true. Thats exactly the point.
All things being equal, 3P being more difficult to control, it is an harder game.
Then, i fail to understand why the harder setting wouldnt be the most competitive one. When you're playing on solo games, you wouldnt say that you finished the game if you play at the intermediate level.

(And i'd even argue that it also works with unequally skilled players. 2P games will be over quicker and much less interesting for everyone involved whereas at 3, you'll have to work a little more and the situation could be more difficult if plans are disrupted.)
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Kulikk
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Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by Kulikk »

RoyalRook wrote: 06 January 2025, 02:20
Kulikk wrote: 06 January 2025, 00:45
VerwijfdManneke wrote: 05 January 2025, 10:42 2p Equating to 3p skill (or even being needed/required) is just not true. Multiple of the top 10 players come from the Dutch 4p scene and don't, afaik, even play 2p.
That's because noone serious plays 3p arena.
There are plenty of good players in 3p arena. The steam community does not have monopoly on all top players in the world. I played with plenty of players that will give anyone a good game. In fact, it's a shame that not more top 2p players experience the 3p arena scene. The none corp one, season 16 was amazing. You missed out.

The none corp era 3p meta was crazy, and changed throughout the season. I would never look at cards like breathing filter the same again, and science was actually science, you can really feel the progression of TM.

I said this before and I will say it again, I can easily get a serious 2p TM match in many platforms, but only on BGA currently you can have a serious 3p match via arena, and pretty much every participant cares about a match and want to win in their own capacities. That's a rare and awesome occasion to experience 3p TM you may never get the chance again. 2p TM will always be there for us, it will never go away, but a good 3p TM fight to the finish is just fantastic.
I'm not arguing that 3p is not fun, and I'm definitely not saying that people playing 3p arena don't try their hardest. Hopefully one day OTML comes back so it's possible to play high level 3p games :)
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RoyalRook
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Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by RoyalRook »

OTML was great, but that was never going to sustain. That's why arena participation is so important, because you get to participate in an organized competition with a deadline to meet, rather than climbing elo on the ladder with no purpose.
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Kulikk
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Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by Kulikk »

I don't really see how climbing elo ladder is different than climbing arena ladder other that one of them resets after couple of months and the other is more enjoyable to play since it's not turn based and has a better format.
VerwijfdManneke
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Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by VerwijfdManneke »

Kulikk wrote: 07 January 2025, 01:15 I don't really see how climbing elo ladder is different than climbing arena ladder other that one of them resets after couple of months and the other is more enjoyable to play since it's not turn based and has a better format.
For one it has no real randomised matching and you can just duck any high elo opponents. There are high elo people who seem to be doing this consistently.

Arena can also be played realtime.
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Jellby
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Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by Jellby »

Randomised matching in Arena is an illusion. Once you settle for some time of day, real-time/turn-based, plus strategic red thumbs, the opponent selection can be quite limited. I mean, those who want to limit their opponents can still do so in Arena.
HighlanderKG
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Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by HighlanderKG »

The most competitive format for any game has to be 1v1. We can argue if TfM is more fun/better to play 3p or 2p, but from a competitive standpoint, 2p is superior. Also, playing 2p is much harder, because the mistakes you make are less forgiving. Also, you get the most influence on the game state and end, while in 3p+ there are lots of randomness involved, even with equal player strength, which is very hard to find.

OTB I like playing 3p or 4p, if we play with Colonies as well. I rarely play 2p, because that is not the greatest OTB experience.

Same goes for Azul or some other games which are more fun with more players OTB, but if you play online competitively, you play 2p.

It is the way it is.

The skill in TfM translates in each game mode, but in general, the ones who play 2p predominantly will translate their skill to other formats easier than the ones who play 3p+ to 2p. When you play 2p, you need to be very precise at the top level to convert your advantage. In 3p you get random buffs and nerfs from player interaction, so it is harder to calculate and assume what will happen, especially if your opponents are bad/erratic, which will mostly be the case.

Even if you develop a feeling what they'll do, and pass them cards in draft to facilliate bad plays for them, in 2p that loose playing style will hurt you badly.
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MasterMystery
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Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by MasterMystery »

On balanced games 2p is more competitive, but compared to for example ark nova, tfm is far less balanced, cards, corps etc. also game mode dependent.

1) corps are not balanced, the strength changes with player count. As there is no draft of corps, or all selected, this is not a decision. Simply said production corps get better with fewer players as on average there are more generations, tharsis and saturn better with more, mining better with fewer, ... So inherently for which player counts/average generations are they balanced for, that already impacts if 2/3/4/5 player is more balanced and to a lesser degree competitive

2) average generations are more in two player and you target the one opponent you have production swing cards asteroid mining consortium, etc are no brainers, is that a skill or not? opportunity cost is marginal early to mid game compared to benefit while in 3 player there are decisions (is opportunity cost too high vs non-targeted player, whom to target etc) (so regarding last statement: "In 3p you get random buffs and nerfs from player interaction," you get exactly the same in two player with those cards, whoever draws them randomly first in the draft will get it..)

3) seeing fewer cards without draft (which is considered gold standard) and with lower player counts again impacts corp balance (specific symbol/type card corps get better)...


will be interesting to see long-term what the elo ceilings will end up etc. TFM has quite some skill but inherently game balance in the game and cards themselves is far far lower than most think.
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Kulikk
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Re: Season 19 thoughts, 2p vs 3p Terraforming Mars

Post by Kulikk »

MasterMystery wrote: 07 January 2025, 12:55 On balanced games 2p is more competitive, but compared to for example ark nova, tfm is far less balanced, cards, corps etc. also game mode dependent.

1) corps are not balanced, the strength changes with player count. As there is no draft of corps, or all selected, this is not a decision. Simply said production corps get better with fewer players as on average there are more generations, tharsis and saturn better with more, mining better with fewer, ... So inherently for which player counts/average generations are they balanced for, that already impacts if 2/3/4/5 player is more balanced and to a lesser degree competitive

2) average generations are more in two player and you target the one opponent you have production swing cards asteroid mining consortium, etc are no brainers, is that a skill or not? opportunity cost is marginal early to mid game compared to benefit while in 3 player there are decisions (is opportunity cost too high vs non-targeted player, whom to target etc) (so regarding last statement: "In 3p you get random buffs and nerfs from player interaction," you get exactly the same in two player with those cards, whoever draws them randomly first in the draft will get it..)

3) seeing fewer cards without draft (which is considered gold standard) and with lower player counts again impacts corp balance (specific symbol/type card corps get better)...


will be interesting to see long-term what the elo ceilings will end up etc. TFM has quite some skill but inherently game balance in the game and cards themselves is far far lower than most think.
Well on steam with k32 and starting elo of 1500 elo ceiling is 2300+. Without abusing BGA's elo system I think that 800 is easily achievable with proper play. For reference my peak steam elo was around 2130 which felt waaaay harder than 731 on bga
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