Board Game Arena

haiduk wrote: ↑13 June 2025, 00:33 Starting is worse 100% of the time so i don't really know what you're talking about.
Revealing cards for your opponents with your first tree is bad.

I'm confused by this. Is revealing cards with the first tree played particularly bad? Worse than the 2nd tree played, or any of the others?

I'm not the OP, nor particularly experienced at this game, but I also assumed going first was advantageous. It seems in a 2-player game, there's a roughly 50% chance that the start player will get an extra turn.

ImTimbud wrote: ↑02 September 2025, 00:32
I'm confused by this. Is revealing cards with the first tree played particularly bad? Worse than the 2nd tree played, or any of the others?

I'm not the OP, nor particularly experienced at this game, but I also assumed going first was advantageous. It seems in a 2-player game, there's a roughly 50% chance that the start player will get an extra turn.

Agreed - I don't see the disadvantage of playing the first tree either. Maybe im missing something or maybe it's just that it feels uncomfortable.

Going first on the other hand means indeed a chance of getting an extra turn over your opponent. But I don't think that's big enough of an advantage that it would require balancing.

If you play a tree on the second turn, when everyone has 8 cards in hand, then the other player(s) will get an earlier chance to choose whether to draw from the clearing based on whether the revealed card is good for them. If on the other hand you fill your hand on the second turn, then the other player(s) get a chance to play a tree and reveal a card to the clearing that you probably _won't_ be able to take (unless you were lucky and your opening hand has a get another turn bonus that you can use), and they will again get first dibs at that. So that is a small advantage to not being first. But it's very small, just like the chance of an extra turn - these two things probably balance out. Overall, turn order doesn't seem to have much effect on your odds in this game, as far as I know.

Hmm, still don't quite see it. Yes, the first player playing a tree in turn 2 will draw a card from the deck to the clearing that the other player (lets stick to 2 players for simplicity) has dibs on. But then either

a) the second player will play a tree as well, revealing a card the first player has dibs on
or
b) the second player takes the card, filling their hand to 10 and allowing the first player to play a second tree relatively safe while in the next turn moving on to a) anyways

so in both cases both players get the same amount of "dibs on cards drawn to the clearing".
Do you see the advantage in the fact that the second player has their dibs situation one turn earlier? That's indeed a very minor advantage...

In engine based games, getting your engine started a turn earlier is indeed an advantage. Having to reveal cards for the other player, which means he has more options, is a disadvantage. Filling your hand first and being unable to draw the revealed cards, also a disadvantage.
So yes, being 2nd is bad .

I completely agree with haiduk's opinion. I think starting second is the best position.
Unless your opponent has a tree that allows them to play again.

Because you have the tempo at the start of the game. To win, you have to counter your opponent, so you have to avoid them getting the powerful cards from the clearing, and starting second allows you to do that.

- If your opponent plays a tree when they have 8 cards, this reveals a card + potentially what they discard.
This allows us to draw again to reach 10 cards with more choices thanks to the clearing. This gives us more leeway to reach the bonus action of a tree or bush. Then there is little chance that they will instantly play another tree that would reveal a card that would be inaccessible to us, and afterwards we can play while retaining the possibility of recovering a revealed card without ever being blocked, which is not possible when playing first (again, except if there is a tree that allows them to play again).

- If the opponent draws to reach 10 cards, then they can play a tree, the card reveal will not be accessible to them, so potentially for us, and in addition, unless they play a bush, they will reveal one more. Which is even more interesting.
(Note that a player who draws the 10th card at the beginning either needs one more card to complete a bonus, doesn't want to sacrifice cards, or is unaware of the risk).

This tempo and whether or not you have access to the revealed cards gives the second player an advantage, and if we judge that it is slightly better than the 2 extra cards, it is because there is a fairly high percentage that these revealed cards will be interesting, and at worst, we draw. Furthermore, depending on when the game ends, there is a 50% chance that the same number of turns will have been played, which more or less cancels out the advantage of starting.

haiduk wrote: ↑29 October 2025, 20:59 In engine based games, getting your engine started a turn earlier is indeed an advantage. Having to reveal cards for the other player, which means he has more options, is a disadvantage. Filling your hand first and being unable to draw the revealed cards, also a disadvantage.
So yes, being 2nd is bad .

Forest Shuffle is an engine builder?

Suoivax wrote: ↑19 November 2025, 23:49 Forest Shuffle is an engine builder?

Admittedly, this isn't a deck you use in a cycle format.
But you could say it's an engine-building game, since you're looking to build synergies between cards, generally searching for cards that allow you to draw at the beginning, then scoring cards, and other cards that allow the scoring cards to develop their potential, etc...

Suoivax wrote: ↑19 November 2025, 23:49

haiduk wrote: ↑29 October 2025, 20:59 In engine based games, getting your engine started a turn earlier is indeed an advantage. Having to reveal cards for the other player, which means he has more options, is a disadvantage. Filling your hand first and being unable to draw the revealed cards, also a disadvantage.
So yes, being 2nd is bad .

Forest Shuffle is an engine builder?

No, it's pretty much a pure example of a set-collection game. Only if you call _all_ set-collection games "engine building" would it make sense to call Forest Shuffle that.

I'm hoping someone can give us some statistics on the winning percentage for the starting order. I'm assuming it's close to 50%, but now I'm curious.

When games are close, it's more important who draw the last winter card after their move. When you play with someone on similar level it is rather a "luck to draw a card" game.