Hi all!
Thanks Jon for picking up the topic. It really means a lot to me. <3
I wanted to answer with more consideration of the words i use, so it took time, since i'm a bit workaholic.
** 1. First thoughts **
I like both ideas. Drafting is interesting. It's interesting if drafting ABBA or BAAB would be better. Probably not so much difference, but i'll try to look into it.
The random tricks covered seems like a simple solution that covers the problem of the FT (Forbidden Tactic), which is to
1. Howl (...)
2. Complete_1_dog (...)
3. Score/wait (...)
(tricks reset)
4. Howl
This gives a huge advantage. The game is much easier if you can pull this off. Especially if you're advanced player. For avg players it might not be an issue, since most of 100-250 elo players actually don't know what they do / play for dopamine only. Assuming that's the ranking of most of the players, I don't know if analysis (53-47) did that distinction. In my experience, a lot of APs (average players) even if they manage to get 1 dog completed, they fail to realize the potential of this tactic. even if they score and get to howl 2nd time, they don't, because they fail to realize the advantage it gives.
Now in the Tournament Mode (TM) the only possibility for pulling FT off is to have Burt. Single space to fill. You might get it while howling. Happened to me more than once or twice. But it's very, very unlikely now.
Hm, on the second thought maybe that would be better, if draft was BAAB instead of ABBA. That would mathematically ensure A won't get Burt. (now the whole tactic is very, very unlikely)
I like the idea it creates more opening variety. With 2 tricks blocked, i would actually think of picking something else. Now, not picking Howl is sub-optimal move in all-but-one situations. The only situation not to open with howl is when you play a fixed set with Chew and you want to achieve treat-domination hoping for a good purple run in the end.
** break **
my first idea for balncing the game was to just disallow A to score in the first round. But Jon came with (imho) better, more interesting idea. Instead of limiting the game, let's expand it / vary it. Very creative.
**2. Further Thoughts **
* Regarding playing with paws.
It's more of a fairness of a game. If I start with dogs 12 13 and my opponent has Doog and other dog, and starts… i need to block Beg because 4treats for a turn is huge. Especially in a fixed set. I have one game in mind i played, won it anyway, but it was a huge, huge risk / disadvantage.
* The problem isn't with paws and number of spaces. It's to do with treats. You need to reliably finish a game with some certainty. You can't do it without Treats / … / … / Fetch / Lucky_Retrieve / Hunt / Search.
* Scoring isn't really a decision based on dog on the draw deck. That dog is a third-rate factor.
* The fact, that JorgeAnchovy didn't understand why the tweak #1 might be useful, also supports what i claimed above – it is not obvious that the FT is clearly visible for everybody. Jorge's playstyle is more aggressive (imho), he pushes more. I play more securely. Which some people exploit and then i loose xD
Hm, so even though top10 arena players don't know this tactic (which is strange to me, but well…), the TM might be just a fun spin-off to try.
Off-leash was supposed to be random variant. Pure randomness, just fun. And so they thought. Turns out, in the long run that's the most fair variant for skilled players. This was clearly visible this Arena season. Especially based on the rankings (all-time) of top 10 players. There were a lot of 400+ and even 500+ ratings. Because skill was a factor then, so it actually allowed top-tier players to get higher scores.
With RRS (random recommended sets) the rankings have dropped immediately. I think i managed to stay much above for this period of time because i almost haven't played arena this season. I even lost my guru's badge today (lol). So when the randomness hits, the more scores gravitate towards the average. And the less ELO system trully works.
* JorgeAnchovy
* Busts
Busts aren't completely wrong. Busting is a tactic. It doesn't matter if you bust or not. The only outcome is that you finish all the dogs earlier. Busting on your own terms is a correct choice if you want to save treats. One good purple can outperform a bust. Providing you have treats.
* Howl either/or.
Very interesting. I like it. BUT!
But there's a problem with that. I have to pinpoint it out.
There are tons of situations, that you actually leave off-leash to the other player. So he/she can bust.
Imagine situation: 3 tricks left. Howl+Run+Rollover, let's say. Your opponnet has 6-7 in yard, few spaces on dogs. high chance of busting. Low treat count. What do you do? You Rollver, even though you have yard=0, so your opponent has to howl and risk busting at not their own terms.
* Testing in practice
Unfortunatelly, i don't have a physical friend who can sit and test it with me. I could try to sit by my own, but that's not fun if you can't talk and discuss ideas. If i'm gonna talk only to myself, i have nobody to challange my ideas. I gave those ideas some thinking though. And talked a bit with friends, but i had to clarify why the change is needed, so that's not actually helpful xD
EDIT: turns out i can meet with Hungry Black Hole and test it out. Probably in the new year
* I had a fixed set game analysis which I once sent to CMYK. I thought I could publish it here as well, so other top tier players can actually see why there's a problem with openings.
I won this game. I had some luck. But I think it's a good example that my opponent couldn't do anything to change their situation. Yes, i won and i don't like that xD I could have been in the opposite situation. But then i wouldn't know exactly, if my opponent tried to block everything from me, or he was just lucky. When i review my game, i'm sure that's what the player intended, because i was the player.
https://spots-analyzis-2-by-lelel555.tiiny.site/
This could be also the example why fixed sets are just very random. And here comes the tweak #2 Jon thought about: draft. With draft BAAB we could exclude situation A gets all the paws, B gets none. Even without tweak #1 it would be more balanced.
** 3. Closing thoughts **
First of all, Thank you Jon for designing the game. It actually means a lot to me.
Happy to be a part of this community.
Thanks Jon for diving into this tweaks. I thougth I was ghosted that some time ago, when i wrote the e-mail. Turns out I was wrong and you indeed gave a deep thought about it. It's heartwarming.
lesson learned: not every action you make has visible consequences. If you think something is true, fight for it. You'll be seen one day somehow.
The tweaks look fun in paper, first thoughts are positive.
Merry x-mas to all of you guys!
Or:
Merry crisis! And a happy new fear!
Thanks Jon for picking up the topic. It really means a lot to me. <3
I wanted to answer with more consideration of the words i use, so it took time, since i'm a bit workaholic.
** 1. First thoughts **
I like both ideas. Drafting is interesting. It's interesting if drafting ABBA or BAAB would be better. Probably not so much difference, but i'll try to look into it.
The random tricks covered seems like a simple solution that covers the problem of the FT (Forbidden Tactic), which is to
1. Howl (...)
2. Complete_1_dog (...)
3. Score/wait (...)
(tricks reset)
4. Howl
This gives a huge advantage. The game is much easier if you can pull this off. Especially if you're advanced player. For avg players it might not be an issue, since most of 100-250 elo players actually don't know what they do / play for dopamine only. Assuming that's the ranking of most of the players, I don't know if analysis (53-47) did that distinction. In my experience, a lot of APs (average players) even if they manage to get 1 dog completed, they fail to realize the potential of this tactic. even if they score and get to howl 2nd time, they don't, because they fail to realize the advantage it gives.
Now in the Tournament Mode (TM) the only possibility for pulling FT off is to have Burt. Single space to fill. You might get it while howling. Happened to me more than once or twice. But it's very, very unlikely now.
Hm, on the second thought maybe that would be better, if draft was BAAB instead of ABBA. That would mathematically ensure A won't get Burt. (now the whole tactic is very, very unlikely)
I like the idea it creates more opening variety. With 2 tricks blocked, i would actually think of picking something else. Now, not picking Howl is sub-optimal move in all-but-one situations. The only situation not to open with howl is when you play a fixed set with Chew and you want to achieve treat-domination hoping for a good purple run in the end.
** break **
my first idea for balncing the game was to just disallow A to score in the first round. But Jon came with (imho) better, more interesting idea. Instead of limiting the game, let's expand it / vary it. Very creative.
**2. Further Thoughts **
* Regarding playing with paws.
It's not the matter of fun or not.I do understand that it can be less fun playing without paws, though!
It's more of a fairness of a game. If I start with dogs 12 13 and my opponent has Doog and other dog, and starts… i need to block Beg because 4treats for a turn is huge. Especially in a fixed set. I have one game in mind i played, won it anyway, but it was a huge, huge risk / disadvantage. * The problem isn't with paws and number of spaces. It's to do with treats. You need to reliably finish a game with some certainty. You can't do it without Treats / … / … / Fetch / Lucky_Retrieve / Hunt / Search.
* Scoring isn't really a decision based on dog on the draw deck. That dog is a third-rate factor.
* The fact, that JorgeAnchovy didn't understand why the tweak #1 might be useful, also supports what i claimed above – it is not obvious that the FT is clearly visible for everybody. Jorge's playstyle is more aggressive (imho), he pushes more. I play more securely. Which some people exploit and then i loose xD
Hm, so even though top10 arena players don't know this tactic (which is strange to me, but well…), the TM might be just a fun spin-off to try.
Off-leash was supposed to be random variant. Pure randomness, just fun. And so they thought. Turns out, in the long run that's the most fair variant for skilled players. This was clearly visible this Arena season. Especially based on the rankings (all-time) of top 10 players. There were a lot of 400+ and even 500+ ratings. Because skill was a factor then, so it actually allowed top-tier players to get higher scores.
With RRS (random recommended sets) the rankings have dropped immediately. I think i managed to stay much above for this period of time because i almost haven't played arena this season. I even lost my guru's badge today (lol). So when the randomness hits, the more scores gravitate towards the average. And the less ELO system trully works.
* JorgeAnchovy
No, you're right. Assuming off-leash or most sets. The only exception to that is when you have a fixed set with gobble&guard and you have dogs like 14, 35, 12 and your opponent gets Doog and can't score treats.You've really made me ponder some things. If I see Doog ahead I tend to be motivated to score or howl in a lot of scenarios -- maybe that's wrong.
* Busts
Busts aren't completely wrong. Busting is a tactic. It doesn't matter if you bust or not. The only outcome is that you finish all the dogs earlier. Busting on your own terms is a correct choice if you want to save treats. One good purple can outperform a bust. Providing you have treats.
* Howl either/or.
Very interesting. I like it. BUT!
But there's a problem with that. I have to pinpoint it out.
There are tons of situations, that you actually leave off-leash to the other player. So he/she can bust.
Imagine situation: 3 tricks left. Howl+Run+Rollover, let's say. Your opponnet has 6-7 in yard, few spaces on dogs. high chance of busting. Low treat count. What do you do? You Rollver, even though you have yard=0, so your opponent has to howl and risk busting at not their own terms.
* Testing in practice
Unfortunatelly, i don't have a physical friend who can sit and test it with me. I could try to sit by my own, but that's not fun if you can't talk and discuss ideas. If i'm gonna talk only to myself, i have nobody to challange my ideas. I gave those ideas some thinking though. And talked a bit with friends, but i had to clarify why the change is needed, so that's not actually helpful xD
EDIT: turns out i can meet with Hungry Black Hole and test it out. Probably in the new year
* I had a fixed set game analysis which I once sent to CMYK. I thought I could publish it here as well, so other top tier players can actually see why there's a problem with openings.
I won this game. I had some luck. But I think it's a good example that my opponent couldn't do anything to change their situation. Yes, i won and i don't like that xD I could have been in the opposite situation. But then i wouldn't know exactly, if my opponent tried to block everything from me, or he was just lucky. When i review my game, i'm sure that's what the player intended, because i was the player.
https://spots-analyzis-2-by-lelel555.tiiny.site/
This could be also the example why fixed sets are just very random. And here comes the tweak #2 Jon thought about: draft. With draft BAAB we could exclude situation A gets all the paws, B gets none. Even without tweak #1 it would be more balanced.
** 3. Closing thoughts **
First of all, Thank you Jon for designing the game. It actually means a lot to me.
Happy to be a part of this community.
Thanks Jon for diving into this tweaks. I thougth I was ghosted that some time ago, when i wrote the e-mail. Turns out I was wrong and you indeed gave a deep thought about it. It's heartwarming.
lesson learned: not every action you make has visible consequences. If you think something is true, fight for it. You'll be seen one day somehow.
The tweaks look fun in paper, first thoughts are positive.
Merry x-mas to all of you guys!
Or:
Merry crisis! And a happy new fear!