Is there a more toxic game than Spades?

[azcats2002]

I do think it is the best way.

19 bags = -81 pts.
1 set of a 4 bid is -80 pts.

Also, another thing to consider.
I almost never bid what i think i can make. I bid what is possible as a team.

there are many times i force an 11 bid even though i dont think i can make that bid as an individual.

Together as a team we can make our bid. If i have a partner who is only leading suits and taking tricks to make their bid, then they are doing the team a disservice. The goal is not to make "my bid" and "your bid" it is to make "our bid."

[FrankJones]

I do think it is the best way.

19 bags = -81 pts.
1 set of a 4 bid is -80 pts.

Also, another thing to consider.
I almost never bid what i think i can make. I bid what is possible as a team.

there are many times i force an 11 bid even though i dont think i can make that bid as an individual.

Together as a team we can make our bid. If i have a partner who is only leading suits and taking tricks to make their bid, then they are doing the team a disservice. The goal is not to make "my bid" and "your bid" it is to make "our bid."

I realize that. I do know how to play this game. I'm not sure why you're talking to me as though I do not.

From an Expected value standpoint:

The value of goi for a set is: (Probability of a set) x (points gained from successfully making the set)

The cost of going for a set is: (Probability of failing to make the set) x (cost of failing to make the set).

One of those two plays will have a higher EV than the other.

[FrankJones]

And, again, it depends on context. Making a set in an 11 bis requires some cards of value.

Is there a side suit with a control card that can be run if all the spades are played? DO I have secondary cards (Queens, jacks, etc.) that can be promoted to winners in an end-game scenario if spades are likely to be gone? Is this the kind of hand in which the final few tricks are likely to be taken by spades or by side suits? What cards do I need my partner to have to actually be able to make the set, and how likely it is that my partner has them?

Or, other questions such as, "my LHO bid 2 and has taken 2. My RHO opponent bid 3 and has taken 0. Based on how my RHO has been playing, and the cards I've seen in this hand, how likely is it that I can hold my RHO to 2 tricks?"

Blazing full speed ahead without considering the above information is noy how I play. Maybe it works for some. There are multiple paths to victory. I think the optimal play is to recognize when the reward of going for a set outweighs the risk, but also recognizing when the chance of a set is so low the risk does not justify the reward, especially if it looks like it might be a game in which whoever hits 10 bags will lose.

[azcats2002]

And while you are tossing 9 and 10 cause you dont think you can set, you have a partner tossing Q and J cause they have their bid. And then my team sets you with 7 and 8s.


If you go into a 11 bid trying not to set. And trying to get your bid perfectly, you are still going to get 1 bag and mad maybe 2 bags in many of these situations.

And most likely, end up getting set.

Much easier to just get your bid….and adjust as the hand moves forward.

Very few games are lost due to bags. More games are lost due to missed bids.

[FrankJones]

And while you are tossing 9 and 10 cause you dont think you can set, you have a partner tossing Q and J cause they have their bid. And then my team sets you with 7 and 8s.


If you go into a 11 bid trying not to set. And trying to get your bid perfectly, you are still going to get 1 bag and mad maybe 2 bags in many of these situations.

And most likely, end up getting set.

Much easier to just get your bid….and adjust as the hand moves forward.

Very few games are lost due to bags. More games are lost due to missed bids.

I stand by what I have already said. I'm pretty sure I have not been set by the opponents taking tricks with sevens and eights in an 11 bid while I missed by bid by throwing away a 9 or a 10.

[cosdogg]

This game brings out the absolute worst in people.


In my last game, my partner just tears into me at every opportunity, lecturing me on how to play, as though my top 15 Elo and 345 Elo indicate I don't know how to play ? As though his Elo being 15 points higher means he knows everything and I know nothing?

Really ??????

Takes credit for everything that goes right, yells at me anytime a hand ends up sub-optimal.

People like this should just be banned from the site.

Garbage should be placed in the garbage can.

I bet I could guess the player lol

[cosdogg]

The reason Spades is "toxic" is because unlike other games, Spades requires a partner.

In most games it is 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 and if someone is a weaker player it doesnt matter.

in Spades, many of the arena players do not play with the fundamentals of the game.

so you will often have a stronger more expert player teamed with a weaker novice player.
And often the weaker player believes that the game is mostly luck and that they are not doing anything wrong.

however, there are a lots of fundamental rules and some expert techniques that are in play.

it can be frustrating when the weaker player does not listen to the stronger player which can be seen by the win ratio.

so, then arguments happen.

now it gets funny when the weaker player tries to tell the stronger player how to play that become a whole different thing.

Frank, unfortunately i disagree with you. unless, it is near the end of the game. you should always be looking to set on 11 bid. Often the difference between an 11 bid and a 12 bid is someone losing a King or an ace.. if you go for the set, 3 things happen. 1. you might set the opps. 2. you will not get set yourself. 3. most times the bags are split anyway, so trying to avoid bags is inconsequential.

basically, you should only avoid bags on 11 bid when it is clear no one can get set.

players like me, will often notice when one player is playing to avoid bags.. we will begin not trumping and tossing off suits and letting our p win with low cards....and then we can trump the opp's partner on an A or K they were counting on. it happens a lot of the time.

it happened yesterday. The opp said "i saw you tossing so i didnt trump" but their p was just tossing cause they knew their partner had the ability to trump. so no one trumps and the set is in.

This is sound strategy, however it is thought of after the fact. In an actual hand, i have to consider the likelihood that the other team is going to be able to set. and every hand is unique, so to have a 'single strategy' is short sighted. If i am short in a suit, it means others are also. most 11 bids become sets when the partners cover each other. and there is not an easy way to know that early in the round, for every suit. Is always better to talk after the hand about the strategy employed to learn about how your partner thought about that round, b/c as stated every hand (and every round) is unique

[azcats2002]

I still disagree.

I just played a game…

We had 7 bid.

1 bid vs 3 bid for opps.

1 bid gets her bid. Next club, she holds king. Lets we win with 9 of clubs.

Her p has 0/3 tricks.

We lead spades. …. I have AJ10 of spades. Since i know the 1 bid is ducking cause she has “her bid” i know she wont take any more tricks.

I play my 10. Win with it. End up trapping the 3 bids King of spades.


This happens all the time. “I got my bid” on 11 bid just lets me play 2 versus 1 against the 3 bid.

Easy set.

If the 1 bid had simply just won with king. Her p could make bid and toss tricks later on.

This is not “hindsight” or “ after the fact”. This happens all the time and it lets stronger players set 11 bids.

[FrankJones]

It depends on the cards, what each player bid, which cards have been seen already in the hand at the point when a decision needs to be made, and the playing tendencies demonstrated already by the players at the table.

It is a mistake to go for a set in an 11 bid when the available information indicates it's close to impossible. The most optimal play is to go for the set when the above-described information indicates the probability is high enough to justify taking 2 bags when the set fails.

If you bid conservatively with a hand that has potential to take several "maybe" or "iffy" tricks, that's a different scenario from a hand that you bid aggressively and close to max possible value.

A hand in a game in which the opponents have shown a tendency to be sloppy in 11 bids and put themselves in a bad spot is a different situation from a hand in a game in which the opponents have shown themselves to be accurate bidders and careful players who are unlikely to get themselves set in an 11 bid.

In a hand in which both sides are definitely going to take their birds, whichever team recognizes that first and avoids unnecessary bags will be at an advantage.

[azcats2002]

The issue is….most players in arena dont know the fundamentals so almost every 11 bid is available to be a set.

It is rare to play a game with 4 strong players.

And if that is the case, none of them are going to duck a trick early on….

Cause good players win games on sets or luck of cards. Winning a game because the opps got 10 bags and your team didnt get a set (bag, nil, bid) is rare.