Weird game experience

[jennasaycoy]

I actually love this thread. Recently an opponent said, "so that's how it is" after I made a strategic play and similarly seemed to imply that I wasn't playing fairly. lol.

I actually love the push-pull of an Azul game with a new player, because it's all fun and games at the start... until one person makes a move that purely serves to spite someone else, and then it's everyone for themselves.

[jesspeachie]

I think we're all here for fun. but I think some derive fun from schadenfreude. I think the best strategic plays take from your opponent AND help you at the same time. sometimes when your down playing defensively is your best play. but the plays that feel the most spiteful is when you could take tiles to help yourself and instead you choose to inflict massive negatives on a player at the end of a round. sure its all strategy but it can totally strip a round or twos worth of work and its not fun when someones entire strategy is to just give you negatives. A tile or two here and there is expected but 5 tiles your opponent could have taken to fill a row... sucks the fun. sue me!

but I will say playing against people with that mentality has helped me be more strategic with tile placements.

[FrankJones]

There is no such thing as a "spiteful" move or a "defensive" move or an "aggressive" move.

In Azul, on each turn, there is an optimal move and a lot of sub-optimal moves. In a game in which player scores to go up and down and points can be gained or lost, the optimal move is that move which results in the highest net gain relative to the other options.

That might mean taking a -3 while sticking the opponent with a -7. It might mean making a +6 move that allows the opponent to make a +3 move. Expecting an opponent to bypass a +4 net gain move just because it causes both players to lose points is just as silly as expecting an opponent to make a +2 move instead of a +6 move.

Such an outlook on the game illustrates a failure to acknowledge the goal of the game. Those who don't care about the score can play in friendly mode and quit without penalty if the opponent is "being mean" and "trying to win".

[Paddles]

It seems that too many players on this site (it's certainly comon in Ticket To Ride) have conflated the real victory condition "score more points than your opponents" with "maximise your own score". These are not the same goal, and an important step to being a strong player is recognising when these goals conflict with each other.

If you want to play a game with your own personal goal "maximise your own score" then that's fine, but accept that you're not playing the game as it was designed, and your opponents are not obliged to play by your arbitrary personal rules.

[Strode]

The same just happened to me. My opponent asked me what the 'goal of it all' was. When I said 'to win' he said it was bad sportmanship to play like I did (e.g. taking pieces he needed). Glad to read some people agree with me

I might have said "to be challenged" (though it's hard to feel challenged if you aren't trying to win). This stresses the fact that Azul is more challenging if you have to worry about someone sticking you with a bunch of tiles. It's one more thing to consider on your turn. I'd probably say the same about all so-called "mean" games.

[glutealgeometry]

The best way to deal with somebody who focuses more on hurting u than helping themself is to use that tendency against them to kick their butt, then explain to them that they lost by not focusing enough on their own board.

[jesspeachie]

There is no such thing as a "spiteful" move or a "defensive" move or an "aggressive" move.

In Azul, on each turn, there is an optimal move and a lot of sub-optimal moves. In a game in which player scores to go up and down and points can be gained or lost, the optimal move is that move which results in the highest net gain relative to the other options.

That might mean taking a -3 while sticking the opponent with a -7. It might mean making a +6 move that allows the opponent to make a +3 move. Expecting an opponent to bypass a +4 net gain move just because it causes both players to lose points is just as silly as expecting an opponent to make a +2 move instead of a +6 move.

Such an outlook on the game illustrates a failure to acknowledge the goal of the game. Those who don't care about the score can play in friendly mode and quit without penalty if the opponent is "being mean" and "trying to win".

its cool that you play with that level of math and strategy. I dont think every person is doing that. I do in fact think some people are making moves just to be "defensive" or "spiteful" or play "aggressively" which are all things that are possible. because there are plenty of times that those moves dont work in their favor when it comes to end game scoring. I agree there are optimal and suboptimal moves but not every person is calculating that in their decisions. to say theres no such thing as that type of play seems like a blind side.

[euklid314]

There is no such thing as a "spiteful" move or a "defensive" move or an "aggressive" move.

In Azul, on each turn, there is an optimal move and a lot of sub-optimal moves. In a game in which player scores to go up and down and points can be gained or lost, the optimal move is that move which results in the highest net gain relative to the other options.

That might mean taking a -3 while sticking the opponent with a -7. It might mean making a +6 move that allows the opponent to make a +3 move. Expecting an opponent to bypass a +4 net gain move just because it causes both players to lose points is just as silly as expecting an opponent to make a +2 move instead of a +6 move.

Such an outlook on the game illustrates a failure to acknowledge the goal of the game. Those who don't care about the score can play in friendly mode and quit without penalty if the opponent is "being mean" and "trying to win".

its cool that you play with that level of math and strategy. I dont think every person is doing that. I do in fact think some people are making moves just to be "defensive" or "spiteful" or play "aggressively" which are all things that are possible. because there are plenty of times that those moves dont work in their favor when it comes to end game scoring. I agree there are optimal and suboptimal moves but not every person is calculating that in their decisions. to say theres no such thing as that type of play seems like a blind side.

But if a player concentrates too much on blocking you, i.e. if he makes suboptimal moves hurting him more than you then you have to be thankful!

Only if your goal is to optimize your own score you will be disappointed or angry. If you play the game according the rules it does not matter at all if you score almost no points because the opponent takes away all your good scoring opportunities. It will always be a good game.

Since you write about Schadenfreude and spiteful moves in your first post, I assume that you are one of the players that values the absolute value of end points a lot. This is not the case for me.

I had beautiful wins with 20 points in the end and I have beautiful wins with 120 points (2 player each). Neither is per se preferrable.

[Pineapple Pie]

An opponent once accused me of that too, and also said that "has no respect for players like me"
Dude... I don't even know you

[MsTired]

Yeah, today during one game, I received a slightly passive-aggressive message from the opponent saying, "Oh, so we're playing a stealing game then, gotcha." And my answer to that was, no, we are simply playing a game. I understand the frustration, sometimes the "steal" feels personal; someone is actively trying to fuck you over, but, well, isn't that the point?:) Some people really go overboard with "stealing". They do it even if that doesn't benefit them, and ultimately lose. That, I admit, can be weird, but most of the time it's just making sure you reach your goal, which is winning:) Sure, sucks to lose, but writing weird messages to people is not the answer.