Consecutive Wins

[FrankJones]

But that's not the players' fault. How would they even know? A bug is a bug, whether it's related to ELO or anything else. You should be pissed off by BGA's lack of proper handling of bug reports if anything, because that's what should be improved.

True, though it would be nice if players also took a moment to ask themselves, "Is this a bug that is specific to this game or is it likely a bug pertaining to BGA in general?"

It's not even just that. If a player gets their ELO calculated wrong (as for OP), that's a bug, right? Well, if they report it through the bug report system, even if they mark it as not specific to a game, they will NOT get their ELO fixed. For that, apparently they have to contact support in addition to the bug report. Why the player needs to go through an extra hoop for that is baffling. If whoever receives the bug report does not have the proper access to correct all aspects of the bug, the rest of the job should be forwarded to others who do, either automatically or by those who only resolve part of the bug.

If there is actually an Elo miscalculation (which perhaps accounts for a small fraction of 1% of the cases reported; I've never seen one in Terraforming Mars), that's most likely an issue for BGA support. Generally speaking, it has nothing to do with the code for the specific game.

I don't know why the site is set up such that fixing valid Elo errors is such a hassle, but nevertheless, it's not something the developers can do anything about.

The Terraforming Mars bug forum has no means by which I can forward such issues to BGA staff, nor should we be expected to do so.

Yes, the system needs to be fixed. No, further overwhelming volunteers is not the way to fix it.

There should be an easy-to-find link from any active game that allows a player to report directly to BGA staff a problem with an Elo error or a forfeited game due to a site-wide outage or BGA server issue.

The "access" category needs to be completely removed from specific game bug report pages, because there is never anything we can do about those problems, and reporting them in the specific game bug forum is a complete waste of everyone's time.

If anyone wants to volunteer to join the development team of any specific game to aid the lead programmer in sorting bug reports and manually forwarding some of them to BGA staff, hey, go for it. Contact the lead programmer for a specific game and request to be added as a developer/maintainer for that game. Any person who does that will then see how limited the available tools are with regard to dealing with issues that are not relevant to the specific game code for that specific game.

[h_illes]

If there is actually an Elo miscalculation (which perhaps accounts for a small fraction of 1% of the cases reported; I've never seen one in Terraforming Mars), that's most likely an issue for BGA support. Generally speaking, it has nothing to do with the code for the specific game.

I don't know why the site is set up such that fixing valid Elo errors is such a hassle, but nevertheless, it's not something the developers can do anything about.

You seem to keep missing the point. You and I understand how the system works because others told us here in the forums. My issues are the following:
1. For a random player who might not even frequent the forums, there is no indication about this at any point in the bug report system.

2. Once submitting a proper bug report, it should not be players' job to contact support IN ADDITION in the first place. For example this part:

it's not something the developers can do anything about.

Why? They could easily be given access. Or they could also contact people who have access. But this is all backend, which should be handled on BGA's side.

[FrankJones]

You seem to keep missing the point. You and I understand how the system works because others told us here in the forums. My issues are the following:
1. For a random player who might not even frequent the forums, there is no indication about this at any point in the bug report system.

I am not missing the point. I understand the point 100%.

2. Once submitting a proper bug report, it should not be players' job to contact support IN ADDITION in the first place. For example this part:

it's not something the developers can do anything about.

Why? They could easily be given access. Or they could also contact people who have access. But this is all backend, which should be handled on BGA's side.

Why?

Seriously?

I have already explained this, but I'll try again. I will italicize the answer for you.

Because unpaid volunteers should not be expected to do any more work than the already large amount of work they already do.

And, no, it is NOT backend. The bug reports, which involve matters that the development team for that specific game cannot do anything about, are seen only by those developers, not by BGA support or BGA general staff.

But you want those volunteers to then send all those reports manually to the appropriate staff as long as we are "given access"?

Why exactly should I do that? Why should I be expected to do that? I already do countless hours of volunteer work, but you want to add more work to my "job"?

[h_illes]

... but you want to add more work to my "job"?

Note the 'either automatically' part from my first comment about this.

2. Once submitting a proper bug report, it should not be players' job to contact support IN ADDITION in the first place. For example this part:

it's not something the developers can do anything about.

Why? They could easily be given access. Or they could also contact people who have access. But this is all backend, which should be handled on BGA's side.

Why?

Seriously?

I have already explained this, but I'll try again. I will italicize the answer for you.

Because unpaid volunteers should not be expected to do any more work than the already large amount of work they already do.

And, no, it is NOT backend. The bug reports, which involve matters that the development team for that specific game cannot do anything about, are seen only by those developers, not by BGA support or BGA general staff.

But you want those volunteers to then send all those reports manually to the appropriate staff as long as we are "given access"?

Why exactly should I do that? Why should I be expected to do that? I already do countless hours of volunteer work, but you want to add more work to my "job"?

To improve player experience. That's my entire point. The workload of staff and volunteers is something you brought up (and seem to have riled yourself up over it), but I (or a random player if you will) should not have to care about any of that.

That said, I personally don't mind debating about it, and I would also be happy for any changes that help improving the site (that is, improving player experience) while reducing the workload of staff/volunteers. Heck, in this specific situation, that is, if someone's ELO/Arena score was miscalculated, and they (BGA devs) fix the calculation, why not apply the correct calculation automatically, without any further manual intervention? That's what support would do anyway.

Another mimial-effort change to the site would be to improve the bug report system ('it's a bit counter-intuitive', to quote Tisaac from this very thread).

In any case, your anger is misdirected at me. You don't have 'more work' because of me, but because the site is poorly organized. So that's what should be improved.

[FrankJones]

... but you want to add more work to my "job"?

Note the 'either automatically' part from my first comment about this.

I wrote, "it's not something the developers can do anything about."

This was your reply:
"Why? They could easily be given access. Or they could also contact people who have access. "

In other words, you are saying we (the developers) could be given access, or we (the developers) could contact people who have access.
That's very generous of you to volunteer other people's time and labor.

If you wish for this to be done automatically, then the developers have no need to be involved, but when I pointed out that these "bugs" should not be sent to the developers in the first place, your reply was something along the lines of, "why not? An Elo bug is still a bug".

[h_illes]

You bring up what devs can or cannot do again. I should not have to worry about that. I should only have to worry about issues getting resolved. For the sake of the debate, I mentioned one possible solution from among many; one that would indeed increase the workload of devs, which apparently triggered you. In response, I brought up another solution that doesn't (hoping to make you happy). But all that said, a random user shouldn't have to care about the workload of staff/volunteers, and I only do that for the sake of the debate too. Don't get hung up on that.

[FrankJones]

To improve player experience. That's my entire point.

Got it. Your entire point is that unpaid volunteers should do even more work because ... reasons. I'll drop everything and get right on it immediately.

The workload of staff and volunteers is something you brought up (and seem to have riled yourself up over it), but I (or a random player if you will) should not have to care about any of that.

I brought it up because you seem unaware or indifferent to the fact that this site is partly fun by unpaid volunteers whom you expect to do more work than they already do.

You're right, you don't have to care about any of that. You don't have to do anything. I don't have to do anything either. I could just stop my volunteer work altogether, since 99% of the people who post bug reports are posting time-wasting nonsense without showing any appreciation or gratitude. Instead, I continue to help the site and the players. But that's not enough. You want me (and other volunteers to do more, and you don't want to be "bothered" hearing about it.

Okay, sounds cool.

That said, I personally don't mind debating about it,

Being that you are referring to me as "angry" and "riled up" (even though I merely explaining the situation to you, and I did not express any anger), I would say that you do not appear to be interested in debate. What you appear to be interested in is telling me how you think things should be and telling me and other volunteers we should do more, and that we shouldn't bother you by pointing out how much extra work your suggestions would create.

and I would also be happy for any changes that help improving the site (that is, improving player experience) while reducing the workload of staff/volunteers.

The single best way to reduce the workload of volunteers would be to stop allowing players to report "bugs" that have nothing to do with the code of the game, thereby removing the volunteers from that process altogether. Your suggestions seem to be the exact opposite.

If you want player to be able to directly contact BGA about Karma, Elo, connectivity issues, forfeits, then yes, by all means, I agree. But that's no the most recent thing you said. You said you wanted/expected the volunteers who maintain the game to do it.

Heck, in this specific situation, that is, if someone's ELO/Arena score was miscalculated, and they (BGA devs) fix the calculation, why not apply the correct calculation automatically, without any further manual intervention? That's what support would do anyway.

Perhaps I am being unclear, though I am pretty sure I am not. We cannot modify the Elo results of a game. BGA staff / BGA support needs to handle that.

Another mimial-effort change to the site would be to improve the bug report system ('it's a bit counter-intuitive', to quote Tisaac from this very thread).

I agree 100%, though I doubt it would be "minimal effort". The entire system needs a major overhaul. And, there recently was a big [internal] change, one that did not address any of the thigs you are discussing.

In any case, your anger is misdirected at me. You don't have 'more work' because of me, but because the site is poorly organized. So that's what should be improved.

I did not express any anger. But, I and other volunteers would have more work if we were expected to do some of the things you suggested.

[FrankJones]

You bring up what devs can or cannot do again. I should not have to worry about that. I should only have to worry about issues getting resolved. For the sake of the debate, I mentioned one possible solution from among many; one that would indeed increase the workload of devs, which apparently triggered you. In response, I brought up another solution that doesn't (hoping to make you happy). But all that said, a random user shouldn't have to care about the workload of staff/volunteers, and I only do that for the sake of the debate too. Don't get hung up on that.

Random users should care about the workload of the volunteers, since this website would grind to a halt without them.

Why should anyone care what your opinion is regarding what other BGA members and players should or should not have to worry about?

Also, I invite you to stop telling me what I am "hung up" on. I am merely responding to your posts, as you are to mine. I could just as well say that you seem to be inexplicably "hung up" on some of the points you are making. What exactly does that accomplish?

[h_illes]

Wow, that was a whole lot of strawman.

I want the site to work better. I think that's fair. You or other volunteers working more is not the only way to reach that goal, but you ignored my comments about that (so cherry picking too, I guess).

Edit: I will try one last time anyway, just to set this one straight. I appreciate the work of everyone who contributes to the site running. What I should not have to care about is the internal organization of the site. Don't twist my words.

Edit 2: OK, I checked back, and

The workload of staff and volunteers is something you brought up (and seem to have riled yourself up over it), but I (or a random player if you will) should not have to care about any of that.

this part was indeed poorly worded, and I can see how it came across badly. Sorry about that. That said, the workload is still something you brought up, and it derailed the debate from my original point.

[h_illes]

... but you want to add more work to my "job"?

Note the 'either automatically' part from my first comment about this.

I wrote, "it's not something the developers can do anything about."

This was your reply:
"Why? They could easily be given access. Or they could also contact people who have access. "

In other words, you are saying we (the developers) could be given access, or we (the developers) could contact people who have access.
That's very generous of you to volunteer other people's time and labor.

If you wish for this to be done automatically, then the developers have no need to be involved, but when I pointed out that these "bugs" should not be sent to the developers in the first place, your reply was something along the lines of, "why not? An Elo bug is still a bug".

Once a bug is reported, it should be resolved completely. My issue here is that that won't happen unless the player also contacts support in addition to the bug report. Contacting support by the player should not be necessary. Possible solutions: (1) devs resolve the remaining part, (2) devs forward it to support who resolve it, (3) support is contacted automatically and then resolves it, (4) the remaining part of the bug is resolved automatically. From the outside, all four looks the same, and I am happy whichever happens. That said, we agree that (4) is the best due to lower manual workload.