Weak Cards Banlist Discussion!

[alexwjb]

Thanks cw. We'll have to agree to disagree and let's see if more people agree with you!

One more thing. I have come round to the view that Heart of Stone should be banned. I just played it and was reminded of (one of) its huge problems. You have to entirely base your early game around it, and then if grow flips in round 5, it's always a disaster and you have handed your opponents a massive advantage. (Game is here: https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=743044431. NB I clearly made a major error in r14 not fencing first move, but by that point the game was gone anyway largely.)

The stats are appalling (4th worst minor in the game despite being attempted quite a lot). So I now vote ban.

My proposal therefore becomes:

Curator
Catcher
Sequestrator
Paymaster
Breeder Buyer
Forest Scientist
Huntsman
Resource Analyzer
Twin Researcher
Forest Campaigner
Sugar Baker
Tree Inspector
Loudmouth
Cooperative Plower
Small Animal Breeder
Forest Tallyman
Hardworking Man
Large-Scale Farmer
Full Peasant
Mummy's Boy
Culinary Artist
Riparian Builder
Bean Counter
Pig Stalker
Minstrel
Roughcaster

Perennial Rye
Cattle Farm
Brotherly Love
Silage
Elephantgrass Plant
Lifting Machine
Dutch Windmill
Mill Wheel
Social Benefits
Claw Knife
Growing Farm
Heart of Stone

[Acerbic]

For Clarity's sake, could we simplify these lists and only include the additions and removals from the list? Or put those in bold?

[alexwjb]

My latest proposal, broken out by retain/remove/add. Occs then minors in each case.

Currently banned and to stay banned
Curator
Catcher
Sequestrator
Paymaster
Breeder Buyer
Forest Scientist
Huntsman
Resource Analyzer
Twin Researcher
Forest Campaigner
Sugar Baker
Tree Inspector
Loudmouth
Pig Stalker
Minstrel

Perennial Rye
Cattle Farm
Silage
Elephantgrass Plant
Lifting Machine

Remove from banlist
Furniture Carpenter
Blackberry Farmer

Oven Site
Stable Manure

Add to banlist
Roughcaster
Cooperative Plower
Small Animal Breeder
Forest Tallyman
Hardworking Man
Large-Scale Farmer
Full Peasant
Mummy's Boy
Culinary Artist
Riparian Builder
Bean Counter

Brotherly Love
Dutch Windmill
Mill Wheel
Social Benefits
Claw Knife
Growing Farm
Heart of Stone

[hillbre]

quite a lot). So I now vote ban.

My proposal therefore becomes:

Curator
Catcher
Sequestrator
Paymaster
Breeder Buyer
Forest Scientist
Huntsman
Resource Analyzer
Twin Researcher
Forest Campaigner
Sugar Baker
Tree Inspector
Loudmouth
Cooperative Plower
Small Animal Breeder
Forest Tallyman
Hardworking Man
Large-Scale Farmer
Full Peasant
Mummy's Boy
Culinary Artist
Riparian Builder
Bean Counter
Pig Stalker
Minstrel
Roughcaster

Perennial Rye
Cattle Farm
Brotherly Love
Silage
Elephantgrass Plant
Lifting Machine
Dutch Windmill
Mill Wheel
Social Benefits
Claw Knife
Growing Farm
Heart of Stone

I largely agree with this list, but would agree with CW’s minor saves. I also would keep:

heart of stone - fun challenge to try to make work
Cattle farm - combo usefulness

Co-op plower - gotta have some noob traps that help them understand the game! Once they see this is bad they think more.
Culinary Artist - corner case uses
Riparian builder - delayed grow game enabler

Thanks for your work on this Alex!

[lezurichois]

I didn’t see your endgame, Alex. But I’m still against banning heart of stone!

[MasN]

I propose to add acquirer to banlist. Food is tight enough early that it's hard to justify using it. Cooking hearth technically turns a 2f profit on cows, but is slow and requires investment and then doesn't work once you grow.
Late, the price becomes so expensive almost nothing is worth it. Sure, sometimes you can pay 2f for 2 points, but the value has to justify both the food cost and the cost of playing the occ, and it's simply not there. Compare Pig Owner, a mediocre scoring occ, its clear playing acquirer for a category you don't have is so much inferior. Similarly, for early cooking hearth usage, compares very poorly to layabout, which is a pretty decent but by no means amazing food occ.

[torvaldur_makan]

I propose to add acquirer to banlist. Food is tight enough early that it's hard to justify using it. Cooking hearth technically turns a 2f profit on cows, but is slow and requires investment and then doesn't work once you grow.
Late, the price becomes so expensive almost nothing is worth it. Sure, sometimes you can pay 2f for 2 points, but the value has to justify both the food cost and the cost of playing the occ, and it's simply not there. Compare Pig Owner, a mediocre scoring occ, its clear playing acquirer for a category you don't have is so much inferior. Similarly, for early cooking hearth usage, compares very poorly to layabout, which is a pretty decent but by no means amazing food occ.

Acquirer is considered a very strong card by many. I find it very hard to play, but in some games it can be very strong. Statistics suggest it is ok, PWR 2.57. Clear vote NO from me.

[lezurichois]

My advice is keep experimenting with acquirer and don't think of this as 2 food minus 1 food for each additional family member per round

[MasN]

Remove cooperative plower. The card does nothing. (And yet I still sometimes see people play it.)

[grnt]

My latest proposal, broken out by retain/remove/add. Occs then minors in each case.

Currently banned and to stay banned
Curator
Catcher
Sequestrator
Paymaster
Breeder Buyer
Forest Scientist
Huntsman
Resource Analyzer
Twin Researcher
Forest Campaigner
Sugar Baker
Tree Inspector
Loudmouth
Pig Stalker
Minstrel

Perennial Rye
Cattle Farm
Silage
Elephantgrass Plant
Lifting Machine

Remove from banlist
Furniture Carpenter
Blackberry Farmer

Oven Site
Stable Manure

Add to banlist
Roughcaster
Cooperative Plower
Small Animal Breeder
Forest Tallyman
Hardworking Man
Large-Scale Farmer
Full Peasant
Mummy's Boy
Culinary Artist
Riparian Builder
Bean Counter

Brotherly Love
Dutch Windmill
Mill Wheel
Social Benefits
Claw Knife
Growing Farm
Heart of Stone

I think full peasant while nowhere near strong is occasionally useful as a late game occ, and is sometimes a nice fallback resource (which imo makes it have value specifically as a late pick in drafts where card quality and selection plummet, it's fairly frequent that you'll get offered primarily things that you either already fill the role of or will never find the timing to play, and I think cards having potential to resolve inconvenient circumstances gain a good amount at that stage even if you don't end up playing them most of the time)