TM is not a best 2Players game :( (nt)

[HappyMeaI]

it may not have been developed to be a 2p game, but by some chance it ended up being best balanced for 2-3p. Anything above is just pure randomness.

2p & 3p have a decent amount of skill, with most people believing 2p to be the format with least randomness mostly cause of the kingmaking being removed.

Do I need to 24-7 this game and be over 800 ELO to disagree with this?

I enjoy all formats. I actually prefer 4p to 3p, because the kingmaking tends to balance itself out. Although, generally most ppl will pile on against the highest rated player initially. Personally I have a pretty high W/R in 4p mode and I do think that “pure randomness” isn’t the right way to describe it. There’s plenty of anticipation and setting certain opponents up to open plays up for yourself.

I enjoy 2p just as much and play it a lot for fun, not ranked. If I played rank I could easily reach 6-700 because building ELO is mostly just a commitment thing and it’s inflationary. I definitely do not believe this game to be balanced around 2p. The only thing balanced about it is the fact that either player has the same chance to rng X cards. I’ve been playing with my friend probably 2-3 games a day for many weeks now, and I would say he is fairly good around 500+ elo. We have both had 5+ win streaks against eachother on different occasions, a bunch’ve 2 game streaks, but mostly it’s a 50/50 split.

I’m definitely open to a 7-800 “top elo” playing me HU one game at a time for weeks to see if the frequencies shift. I just don’t believe the 80% W/R thing is accurate. I don’t believe there are “skill-based” answers to things like AI in the first 3 gens, EC, or Protected Habs. I believe there are “luck-based” answers which people will usually use as confirmation bias that it was mostly their ability that helped them overcome these cards. It’s like when you start out with the nuts in poker but get out drawn, or when you start out with a bad hand and draw into the nuts. A lot of players can’t compute that it is mostly the luck of the game, not the skill, that brought them to victory.

Being balanced would mean that any and all opens have a near equal chance of winning against eachother so long as you chose the most optimal opening. It would mean that winrates among similar elo opponents would lean towards 50% over the long run probably with 5-10 pts of std deviation min in this game. It would mean that I can happily choose Thorgate with an average open and defeat someone who chooses Luna with an average open. We know that’s just not the case. So how can we presume 2p is balanced?

Just looking at your most recent loss, I'm ~3 gens into the game and the amount of mistakes made already would turn this game from a loss to a win if played more accurately. I'd be willing to bet that at least half of your last 10 losses were winnable games, if not more.

Agreed. My last 100 games are against my friend and we do funny stuff to eachother. I usually wing it and explore some unusual nodes.

Table Terraforming Mars n°717268834

^^ Find a way to win that one, GL.

[xspuipuke]

That's the game Bogeyun was referencing. I, too, watched the first 3 gens and come to the same conclusion as him. Passing Mass Converter to the guy with 5 science tags and AI Central in play was the cherry on top for me.

[HappyMeaI]

That's the game Bogeyun was referencing. I, too, watched the first 3 gens and come to the same conclusion as him. Passing Mass Converter to the guy with 5 science tags and AI Central in play was the cherry on top for me.

Lol yeah I forget why I took ghg over mass. That was a massive blunder. The first 2 gens were played perfectly, but I could actually see an argument for playing Immigrant city mid right w aquifer pumping to place the oceans and get rebates—easier capture on gardener—but +16-17 income gen 1 is pretty much the cream. Also I forget why I SPd greenery in gen 3. Think I was going to take gardener / terraformer / builder but wasn’t paying attention to his science and he took planner. Probably why I passed mass gen also. Regardless, that game was unwinnable I believe.

[primrose1234]

Cherry on the top doesnt mean the rest was correct. Which was pretty surely not!

[xspuipuke]

Exactly. Gens 1 & 2 haven't been perfect either.

[Bogeyun]

That's the game Bogeyun was referencing. I, too, watched the first 3 gens and come to the same conclusion as him. Passing Mass Converter to the guy with 5 science tags and AI Central in play was the cherry on top for me.

Lol yeah I forget why I took ghg over mass. That was a massive blunder. The first 2 gens were played perfectly, but I could actually see an argument for playing Immigrant city mid right w aquifer pumping to place the oceans and get rebates—easier capture on gardener—but +16-17 income gen 1 is pretty much the cream. Also I forget why I SPd greenery in gen 3. Think I was going to take gardener / terraformer / builder but wasn’t paying attention to his science and he took planner. Probably why I passed mass gen also. Regardless, that game was unwinnable I believe.

Perfectly? You skip bushes and trees. Comet with pumping is not worth buying. I love pumping as a card but don't think it was a good game for it - you play the card entirely with cash gen 1. Power gens looks better than supply drop although with pumping the supply drop is a bit better. Playing Immi City gen 1 isn't worth it. You buy TG in opener. You skip EOS in gen 2 draft w/ viral in hand as MG. You pick PI over biomass. We're not even at gen 3 yet

[HappyMeaI]

That's the game Bogeyun was referencing. I, too, watched the first 3 gens and come to the same conclusion as him. Passing Mass Converter to the guy with 5 science tags and AI Central in play was the cherry on top for me.

Lol yeah I forget why I took ghg over mass. That was a massive blunder. The first 2 gens were played perfectly, but I could actually see an argument for playing Immigrant city mid right w aquifer pumping to place the oceans and get rebates—easier capture on gardener—but +16-17 income gen 1 is pretty much the cream. Also I forget why I SPd greenery in gen 3. Think I was going to take gardener / terraformer / builder but wasn’t paying attention to his science and he took planner. Probably why I passed mass gen also. Regardless, that game was unwinnable I believe.

Perfectly? You skip bushes and trees. Comet with pumping is not worth buying. I love pumping as a card but don't think it was a good game for it - you play the card entirely with cash gen 1. Power gens looks better than supply drop although with pumping the supply drop is a bit better. Playing Immi City gen 1 isn't worth it. You buy TG in opener. You skip EOS in gen 2 draft w/ viral in hand as MG. You pick PI over biomass. We're not even at gen 3 yet

I had a better response typed out but lost it, so I’ll do a quicker one.


That was a nutty open for MG. Why take a card like trees / bushes with no HP in hand? Why not play IMM gen 1 with pp in hand as MG? I could see arguing for bushes over tfg with the city in hand, and I don’t mind power generation either. I mathed it out exactly so I could do everything I did and buy 1 extra card. I got sabbed and still ended with 15 income. Not sure how choosing PI over Biomass would matter. Do ppl actually play biomass in the 800s?

I like Aquifer there and I hate that card more than anything. It’s such an economic spew 9/10 times, but it felt kosher there.

Did you finish the game? I’m curious if you think it was winnable. Also let’s play a few non-ranked games. I want to be regaled.

[FrankJones]

Which game are we talking about? I clicked on a replay and I saw Vitor with a weak hand, score 117-113, a win.

[xspuipuke]

First one from the top that he lost

[FrankJones]

First one from the top that he lost

I haven't carefully read any of the other posts.

Here is what I would do:

Bushes, Trees, Mining rights, greenhouses, power plant, indentured workers, and I suppose Aquifer pumping, since we will have lots of steel.

great Aquifer and supply drop.

Aquifer on the two metal spots, then aquifer pump and ocean on the 2-card spot.
If there is still money/steel left, Mining rights on the titanium spot next to the ocean.

I'm not a fan of Immigrant city with no immediate city to be played. Loses our one energy, decreases MC income, and means we need to use cash for aquifer pumping and ocean. I probably do not keep Immigrant or TFGany.

I don't like having +5 steel production and using cash to put down the first ocean with Aquifer pumping.

The sabotage by the opponent was questionable. Why not take away 7 cash?

Gen 2 draft. Hate drafting comet is fine. I'm not buying it though. I'm buying Eos Chasma.

Comet at full price is a bit odd, only killing one plant, and weakening aquifer pumping.

I'm not sure about the greenery placement. I would have headed toward the oceans.

Gen 4, Mas converter cannot be passed. There's no energy for GHG anyway, so it won't be played until gen 5 at the earliest, and the heat won't come in until gen 6.

Towing a comet seems a bit sus while Having steel for Aquifer pumping. I'm saving the titanium for the Jovians.

Gen 5 I'm taking space station, not imported Hydrogen. Same reason.

I'm keeping Rover instead of industrial microbes. If Pets, might as well have Rover.

Dangling 5 plants would make me nervous. Opponent has 24 cards, card draws, and goes first next gen.

Gen 6 I'm taking titanium mine. Mining area has no target at the moment. I might take energy tapping instead of Soletta. If the broke opponent wants to play a gen 7 Soletta... so be it.

Ah. we're playing Soletta. Well, there is a lot of temperature raising to do.

[Opponent sells a card to play EC !? Without doing any of the card draws, maybe find Earth Office or Virus? That's ... very bad.
And then skipped all card draws, including AI central !? ]

Gen 7 - The dangling 8 plants survive! Unexpected. Opponent has 25 cards. Deimos, asteroid, big asteroid, virus, Mining Expedition ...

I would have played Pets before putting down the city.

Gen 8, I think I keep Lagrange over mining Expedition.

Gen 9 - I am surprised Big asteroid got passed back in favor of Methane From titan.
Industrial center I think I put next to my own city, getting a card (need a 3rd plant tag) and setting up Mining area.

Would it be wise here to gamble on an award instead of letting opponent get banker?

I don't like Bribed Committee. The game is ending in 12 gens.

gen 10: Boring draft. Unsure whether anything three is worth getting.

The pass without raising temperature is a bit odd. Might as well get the extra income?