Board Game Arena

You don't need examples, you are just creating a point of contention with the site administration with them.

Ze Monstah wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:22 No... Those 2 were 2 concrete examples of a situation which is ignored and treated with evasiveness. And all she did was post 2 game links, and in both of them, there was more than 1 player.
If you are capable of giving the benefit of a doubt to a 100% obvious cheat situation, you should be able to differentiate the OP's links from the idea of specific public shaming.(even though it is obvious who the persons she is referring to, are, there are more names in those games, so it is not exactly a SPECIFIC PUBLIC SHAMING, as you call it. I suggest you replay those games, to see for yourself).

It's not about giving the accused person the benefit of the doubt, it's about asking the OP to behave decently. Your failure to understand this is your own fault, and while I'd suggest rereading the post to understand it, I'm not sure how it wasn't obvious the first time round... You even admit it's obvious the person they are referring to!

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:24 and the user's solution is to bash my use of the platform in which I did so.

(The bolding is mine)
Um, I wasn't aware that I was the person in question in the games... I called attention to the misuse of the forums. I stated nothing about the actions that you saw someone else do in-game.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:24 If I see someone Rob a store and I tell everyone that person is a thief,

Oh. So if you think you see a thief, you should grab a bullhorn and shout about it in the town square? What's the next step towards vigilante justice? I asked why you did this instead of reporting it to the police. In the United States, shouting about it in the town square would also make it harder to prosecute, because it would make it more difficult to find an unbiased jury. So the police might well question your actions.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:24 Otherwise there is no reason to deflect.

As others have stated, I never defended nor condoned the game actions you mentioned. I simply questioned your forum actions. There is definitely a reason to ask this other than to defend: The reason to ask this question is to bring about better use of the forums.

Ze Monstah wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:22 And all she did was post 2 game links, and in both of them, there was more than 1 player.

And only one player that was at both tables, thus signaling them.

Jest Phulin wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 07:36

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:24 and the user's solution is to bash my use of the platform in which I did so.

(The bolding is mine)
Um, I wasn't aware that I was the person in question in the games... I called attention to the misuse of the forums. I stated nothing about the actions that you saw someone else do in-game.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:24 If I see someone Rob a store and I tell everyone that person is a thief,

Oh. So if you think you see a thief, you should grab a bullhorn and shout about it in the town square? What's the next step towards vigilante justice? I asked why you did this instead of reporting it to the police. In the United States, shouting about it in the town square would also make it harder to prosecute, because it would make it more difficult to find an unbiased jury. So the police might well question your actions.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:24 Otherwise there is no reason to deflect.

As others have stated, I never defended nor condoned the game actions you mentioned. I simply questioned your forum actions. There is definitely a reason to ask this other than to defend: The reason to ask this question is to bring about better use of the forums.

Ze Monstah wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:22 And all she did was post 2 game links, and in both of them, there was more than 1 player.

And only one player that was at both tables, thus signaling them.

Since you are neither an admin nor a moderator, I guess it shouldn't affect you that much what I choose to post. I am calling attention to something I felt needs attention. You keep talking about reporting but I think the issue is that there is no moderation on such things. Anyway, I'm sure this guy really appreciates your concern for him. He should thank you for looking out. I guess you can ignore the discussion if it bothers you so much. To exit this forum you can click on the BGA icon in top left-hand corner of your screen and it should take you back to the homepage.

What are your opinions on people cheating the system to gain a ranking? Do you think it should be allowed? Do you think there should be some type of penalty or de-ranking to account for the fact that people who are working hard to rank and cannot fully excel because those players are stealing the spot? Just because I gave 2 examples of a person doesn't mean there are not others there. In fact there was a case few years ago for a guy who did this exact thing. Do you think such actions de-value the idea of rankings in the first place? I offered my proposal to refute such situations. Do you have any further suggestions that admin can take into consideration for players that do this, given strong evidence of such? These are the proposed topics I wished to discuss. But again, Its good that BGA has you here to raise concern for people that call cheaters out.

An update from a post I made earlier:

I was onto Katalinski a few weeks ago due to abnormally high win rate on some of certain games. If you are expert at those games and you replay them, you will notice the same pattern: both players start with normal plays, then at the last moment, if the game is close, Katalinski's opponent would inexplicably choose not to secure the victory, handing the victory to Katalin.

A few weeks ago, I checked IP address by inviting him and his minions/alt accounts into the same table, but same IP alert came out to be negative between Katalinski and his minions, while some minions shared the same IP address. I reported him using the evidence I had but it was ignored because the moderators likely tried the same method but had no conclusive evidence that he owns multiple accounts.

Well, this changes now because it seems like this player has been less discreet in hiding his tracks. Just create a table, invite Katalinski with:
RaynorFoy, Verminister, Filippo 3914, GideonJ, Gossmas99, TapperK, Evenstevens, kerriascot0, and many others, and you will see.

admitted wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 08:24

An IP match is only supporting evidence and not definitive proof for or against someone cheating.
The lengths some people have gone through to hide their cheating is actually quite astounding.

I looked at some replays and it is definitively sketchy, but I didn't look into it more.
There are cases far more obvious than this that haven't been moderated to any sufficient degree.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 08:07 Since you are neither an admin nor a moderator, I guess it shouldn't affect you that much what I choose to post.

I am a user of the forums. It very much affects me.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 08:07 I am calling attention to something I felt needs attention. You keep talking about reporting but I think the issue is that there is no moderation on such things.

That was not clear with your original post. There seemed to be more space given to analyzing the method of cheating than to discussion about the moderation or lack thereof. In fact, I see no mention in the original post that you attempted to report them to moderators.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 08:07 What are your opinions on people cheating the system to gain a ranking? Do you think it should be allowed?

Kingmaking is expressly forbidden in the terms of service (or at least the FAQ under forbidden behavior). I do not condone it.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 08:07Do you think there should be some type of penalty or de-ranking to account for the fact that people who are working hard to rank and cannot fully excel because those players are stealing the spot?

I believe that currently the ELO ranking system as used on BGA is mostly meaningless, for various reasons that have been discussed before in the forums. I believe that the people who really want to be at the top of a leaderboard should be concerned with the Arena ranking system (which has cheating and other flaws as well, but should be better watched) rather than the general system. I believe there are various forms of injustice in the physical world as well. I know that people are taught that equal work should lead to equal reward, or that equal crimes deserve equal punishment, but I have seen several examples where that is not the case.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 08:07 Just because I gave 2 examples of a person doesn't mean there are not others there.

Just because there are problems in the gaming area of the site doesn't mean there aren't problems in the forums.

ojomojojojojo wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 08:07 Do you have any further suggestions that admin can take into consideration for players that do this, given strong evidence of such?

I kind of like what the FAQ has to say on this.

FAQ wrote: Breaking these rules can lead to the removal of your account and/or a ban from the website.

I don't see a need for anything further than them not being allowed on the website.


And:

admitted wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 08:24

Please do not signal specific people out in the forum for non-forum related issues.


-----
Edit. Ad hominem attack removed. It does little for the argument.
Also, please try to be consistent.
quote=ojomojojojojo post_id=81048 time=1614570101 user_id=456651]
You are dismissed.
[/quote
You have spent a lot of text responding to someone you have dismissed.

ViolentSilence wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 22:57

Ze Monstah wrote: ↑01 March 2021, 18:22 No... Those 2 were 2 concrete examples of a situation which is ignored and treated with evasiveness. And all she did was post 2 game links, and in both of them, there was more than 1 player.
If you are capable of giving the benefit of a doubt to a 100% obvious cheat situation, you should be able to differentiate the OP's links from the idea of specific public shaming.(even though it is obvious who the persons she is referring to, are, there are more names in those games, so it is not exactly a SPECIFIC PUBLIC SHAMING, as you call it. I suggest you replay those games, to see for yourself).

It's not about giving the accused person the benefit of the doubt, it's about asking the OP to behave decently. Your failure to understand this is your own fault, and while I'd suggest rereading the post to understand it, I'm not sure how it wasn't obvious the first time round... You even admit it's obvious the person they are referring to!

I think I read enough. It is a matter of perspective.
For me, the OP did nothing indecent. For you, she did.

I think that giving 2 links is not exactly the same stuff as saying "player x cheated...", even if in those 2 links there are 2 or 3 names which repeat.
For me at least, it is not the same thing, and I DO NOT CONSIDER THE OP (OR ANYTHING REGARDING WHAT SHE WROTE) INDECENT, A*O*GANT, or any of the words used by some of the repliers, words that some might even consider offensive.

I wish there wasn't so much debate on this public name-calling thing, and more debate on what should be ACTIVELY done against cheating.

Ze Monstah wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 11:00 I wish there wasn't so much debate on this public name-calling thing, and more debate on what should be ACTIVELY done against cheating.

Totally. I think this thread is a bit going off-track here.

I think there are two main questions to ask with regards to cheating on bga.

(1) Is the punishment for cheating not harsh enough and should it be increased?
(2) Do reports of cheating go ignored? Why? Is it a fault of the moderator team or a fault of not having provided enough info/proof?

If we have a clear answer to these 2 questions, then I think we should be able to figure out a solution, or at least be put on the right track.

This is not the first time a discussion of cheating has occurred. If you want a fruitful outcome for this thread then you should, IMHO, focus on this topic. If you keep arguing about name-calling then nothing would happen, and it would be a total waste of time.

Ze Monstah wrote: ↑02 March 2021, 11:00I think I read enough. It is a matter of perspective.
For me, the OP did nothing indecent. For you, she did.

I think that giving 2 links is not exactly the same stuff as saying "player x cheated...", even if in those 2 links there are 2 or 3 names which repeat.
For me at least, it is not the same thing, and I DO NOT CONSIDER THE OP (OR ANYTHING REGARDING WHAT SHE WROTE) INDECENT, A*O*GANT, or any of the words used by some of the repliers, words that some might even consider offensive.

I wish there wasn't so much debate on this public name-calling thing, and more debate on what should be ACTIVELY done against cheating.

Implicitly naming someone is no different to explicitly naming someone, except maybe being snide or cowardly in some instances. Naming people in either regard goes against the rules of the forums, and does NOTHING in helping the debate about cheating, beyond showing hypocrisy in people who want to punish others for trangressions while not being able to see their own failings in following established rules.

If you see cheating, the only response is to direct it to the Mods, not to start a lynch mob in the forums. If you think the moderators aren't doing enough, then that IS a debate, but it doesn't need to identify specific people (even implicitly) as that is a separate offence by the rules of the forums. You can argue that moderation is taking too long, the punishments are too lenient, or maybe even argue that maybe there could be some sort of naming of accounts that get banned for one reason or another so people have some confidence of things being investigated, but it's not down to individual members to try vigilante action for themselves. In the Hanabi example I cited, one person doing that was calling out people for not playing in the exact way he demanded and so in no way deserved the public naming. It's not up to regular members to decide who does.

If you can't see why the naming of people is a problem, don't moan about the people who rightly can...