Who advanced?

Tournaments organization / Organisation des tournois
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nik592
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by nik592 »

seugrof wrote: 09 January 2025, 18:55 how can we know exactly what the basis is for eliminating the other players if only one player is expelled for exceeding the time limit?
There's only ever one player expelled for exceeding time. Even if multiple players are over time, even if another player has run over by more time than the player whose turn it currently is, other players at the table (including any who may also be out of time) can skip the person whose turn it currently is (where that player is over time by at least some amount). Once that happens, the game is considered over - the player who was expelled loses, and all other players are considered tied winners. This is just BGA policy and applies to all games, not just tournaments.

Where tournaments get complicated is where multiple people need to be eliminated each round. The expelled player is eliminated, and others are chosen (we think) by age of accounts. But as Meeplelowda says, there is nothing official to confirm that age of account is the determining factor. Many people have confirmed it anecdotally. A few claim they've seen it NOT happen, but I've never seen a concrete example (like Meeplelowda listed) of that, possibly because as Meeplelowda said, checking this information is a bit of a pain.
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seugrof
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by seugrof »

nik592 wrote: 10 January 2025, 16:49
seugrof wrote: 09 January 2025, 18:55 how can we know exactly what the basis is for eliminating the other players if only one player is expelled for exceeding the time limit?
There's only ever one player expelled for exceeding time. Even if multiple players are over time, even if another player has run over by more time than the player whose turn it currently is, other players at the table (including any who may also be out of time) can skip the person whose turn it currently is (where that player is over time by at least some amount). Once that happens, the game is considered over - the player who was expelled loses, and all other players are considered tied winners. This is just BGA policy and applies to all games, not just tournaments.

Where tournaments get complicated is where multiple people need to be eliminated each round. The expelled player is eliminated, and others are chosen (we think) by age of accounts. But as Meeplelowda says, there is nothing official to confirm that age of account is the determining factor. Many people have confirmed it anecdotally. A few claim they've seen it NOT happen, but I've never seen a concrete example (like Meeplelowda listed) of that, possibly because as Meeplelowda said, checking this information is a bit of a pain.
in the case of the game I was talking about, this was the case
as verified by Meeplelowda
it's true that it's tedious, but if they have to eliminate 3 or 4 players in case of expulsion, they take 1 criterion that seems objective to them

several multi-player tournaments don't eliminate half the “losing” players, they keep 5 out of 6, or 4 out of 5,
I went to check the tournaments and unsubscribed from tournaments with more than 3 players that eliminate several players, since I've only been on BGA for 15 months, I'd still be thrown out.
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Meeplelowda
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by Meeplelowda »

seugrof wrote: 10 January 2025, 18:01if they have to eliminate 3 or 4 players in case of expulsion, they take 1 criterion that seems objective to them
It's objective in that it is based on a specific criterion that isn't in dispute, but it isn't fair for a couple reasons.

First, all of the players who did nothing wrong should have an equal chance of advancing. This criterion does not allow that.

Second, it gives the older accounts more options than newer accounts. The older accounts can expel with impunity in a completely lost position (there are some game states where this can be determined) or even if they themselves are out of time (which is another controversial feature of the tournament framework), whereas the newer accounts are handcuffed because even if they are in a completely won position, expelling a player means they won't advance. Putting aside whether expelling in a tournament should be allowed at all, if it is allowed for anyone it should be equally available to everyone (who hasn't themself run out of time).
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seugrof
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by seugrof »

Meeplelowda wrote: 10 January 2025, 19:25
...

First, all of the players who did nothing wrong should have an equal chance of advancing. This criterion does not allow that.

Second, it gives the older accounts more options than newer accounts. The older accounts can expel with impunity in a completely lost position (there are some game states where this can be determined) or even if they themselves are out of time (which is another controversial feature of the tournament framework), whereas the newer accounts are handcuffed because even if they are in a completely won position, expelling a player means they won't advance. Putting aside whether expelling in a tournament should be allowed at all, if it is allowed for anyone it should be equally available to everyone (who hasn't themself run out of time).
you're right it's unfair to new players

but even tournaments that organize 2-player matches for certain games aren't fair.
Swiss system modes are fine, points are accumulated

but in direct elimination, for example at Lucky Numbers, when two rounds are played, it's possible for the 2 players to come to a tie, and one of them is eliminated so that the other can continue the tournament.
This has happened to me 3 times, and each time I asked why I'd been eliminated, and got no answer,
now I've got my answer, it must have been that the opponent was older on BGA
from now on, I won't play direct elimination when there are 2 rounds, with 2 players
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Meeplelowda
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by Meeplelowda »

seugrof wrote: 11 January 2025, 01:05 but in direct elimination, for example at Lucky Numbers, when two rounds are played, it's possible for the 2 players to come to a tie, and one of them is eliminated so that the other can continue the tournament.
This is a different situation. It would take a while to find the post, but someone copied an email from customer support that if there is a tie because of the rules of the game (as opposed to someone being expelled), then the player who advances is chosen randomly. If true, you were just unlucky (so to speak) in Lucky Numbers. But a sample size of 3 is too small to say it wasn't random. 1/8 is not remote odds.
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Mathew5000
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by Mathew5000 »

Meeplelowda wrote: 11 January 2025, 09:01 It would take a while to find the post, but someone copied an email from customer support that if there is a tie because of the rules of the game (as opposed to someone being expelled), then the player who advances is chosen randomly.
Perhaps you are thinking of this thread: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29137

But I'm not convinced that a "true tie" (i.e. equal scores in a game that comes to a normal conclusion) is treated differently, for purposes of deciding advancement, than a "deemed tie" (when one player is expelled for exceeding the time limit and all the others are therefore considered to tie for the win).

I think that it depends on the tournament format. In single-elimination tournaments on BGA, for a tie game I believe it's a random selection as to who advances (see https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36559 ) while for tied games in multi-elimination tournaments the oldest accounts advance to the next round.

The thread I linked to (which quoted a BGA customer service rep) concerned a round-robin format tournament, and it was not a tied game but a tie in the standings.
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seugrof
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by seugrof »

Meeplelowda wrote: 11 January 2025, 09:01
seugrof wrote: 11 January 2025, 01:05 but in direct elimination, for example at Lucky Numbers, when two rounds are played, it's possible for the 2 players to come to a tie, and one of them is eliminated so that the other can continue the tournament.
This is a different situation. It would take a while to find the post, but someone copied an email from customer support that if there is a tie because of the rules of the game (as opposed to someone being expelled), then the player who advances is chosen randomly. If true, you were just unlucky (so to speak) in Lucky Numbers. But a sample size of 3 is too small to say it wasn't random. 1/8 is not remote odds.
I didn't ask the question on the forum, but directly in each tournament where it happened, I asked the question out of curiosity: what was the criterion? the ELO?

3 times isn't a lot, as you say, but it's happened to me 3 times to arrive at a tie in this kind of tournament (direct elimination of Lucky numbers 2 rounds), and each time it was me who was eliminated,

ok, let's say it's chance

well, I'll stick to the Swiss system from now on
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Meeplelowda
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by Meeplelowda »

Mathew5000 wrote: 11 January 2025, 10:38 The thread I linked to (which quoted a BGA customer service rep) concerned a round-robin format tournament, and it was not a tied game but a tie in the standings.
You are right. I remembered it incorrectly. So it's unfair in all the circumstances, but the "good" news is it's predictably unfair....
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Meeplelowda
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by Meeplelowda »

I actually couldn't find a suggestion for this, so here it is:
Players Who Tie In A Tournament Should Advance Randomly, Not By Account Age
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nick182182
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Re: Who advanced?

Post by nick182182 »

Same thing just happened to me here in the most infuriating way. My first tournament ever in HEAT.

https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=607510163

I had actually crossed the finished line and finished first. On the previous turn.

Then this player who had been slightly out of time for most of the game (but just by a couple of hours) got skipped. He was 1hr off at that point. The OTHER player that skipped him was about to be eliminated.... nice move.

Everybody quits. Despite being the only one who crossed the line, I am eliminated (considered 4th). I'm essentially robbed of any ELO points too because I had that largest ELO score and now this is a tie win.

Meanwhile the guy who was about to be eliminated but "skipped" the other guy on the last turn is advancing and "wins" (and makes ELO points, yay!!! double reward)

What a waste. And this is really not a case of a remotely deserved Skip either, the player targeted was making up almost all the time and the race was essentially finished. Purely strategic dirtb*g move.

NOTE: I confirm, in the "tie" we were ranked by order of oldest to most recent account, exactly. 1st to 4th.
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