Weak Cards Banlist Discussion!

[cranesflyhigh]

Am I the only one who thinks it is hilariously ironic that Username "Wallbuilder" is in a chat covering Weak Card Banlist?

It is for sure a great name

[natsumeg]

This text is machine translated, so I apologize if it is difficult to read.

I think the banning of weak cards should be minimized as much as possible.
- Reducing the number of unusable cards and stabilizing card power will reduce the chance of a turnaround due to hand mishaps by advanced players, making players with low ELO more disadvantageous.
- The dilemma of wanting to use SP but not wanting to because there are no minors to play would be one part of Agricola's game balance.

With this in mind, I will write my opinions on some of the cards mentioned in the thread.


Actively support ban:
Future Building Site: As written above.
Agricultural Fertilizers: It's too confusing that this card doesn't activate when you additionally plough the field using plow minors.
Hardworking Man: It's confusing that you can't play minor even if you use this.

Passive support for bans:
Paymaster: Paying grain to get 1 point and giving 2 points is unforgivable.
Pig Stalker: Text is too difficult to understand.

Actively against bans:
Growing Farm: Definitely difficult to use, but 2 points + 6-9 food is worth it for the game plan.
Facades Carving: If you can use it, you can easily get about 3 points. 3 points can change the ranking.
Stable Milker: It is difficult to reliably get 2 Cattle with no additional spaces. I don't want to reduce the number of ways to get an extra Cattle in Stage 5.
Game Provider: Unlike Huntsman, does not require a turn to use and is just grain on the field, especially useful in R14 when you can't get Boar.


I especially don't want cards that are rarely used, not because they are ineffective, but because they are difficult to use, not to be banned.

[alexwjb]

This text is machine translated, so I apologize if it is difficult to read.

I think the banning of weak cards should be minimized as much as possible.
- Reducing the number of unusable cards and stabilizing card power will reduce the chance of a turnaround due to hand mishaps by advanced players, making players with low ELO more disadvantageous.
- The dilemma of wanting to use SP but not wanting to because there are no minors to play would be one part of Agricola's game balance.

With this in mind, I will write my opinions on some of the cards mentioned in the thread.


Actively support ban:
Future Building Site: As written above.
Agricultural Fertilizers: It's too confusing that this card doesn't activate when you additionally plough the field using plow minors.
Hardworking Man: It's confusing that you can't play minor even if you use this.

Passive support for bans:
Paymaster: Paying grain to get 1 point and giving 2 points is unforgivable.
Pig Stalker: Text is too difficult to understand.

Actively against bans:
Growing Farm: Definitely difficult to use, but 2 points + 6-9 food is worth it for the game plan.
Facades Carving: If you can use it, you can easily get about 3 points. 3 points can change the ranking.
Stable Milker: It is difficult to reliably get 2 Cattle with no additional spaces. I don't want to reduce the number of ways to get an extra Cattle in Stage 5.
Game Provider: Unlike Huntsman, does not require a turn to use and is just grain on the field, especially useful in R14 when you can't get Boar.


I especially don't want cards that are rarely used, not because they are ineffective, but because they are difficult to use, not to be banned.

Thank you Natsumeg! I understand your post well.

What do you think about these cards?

A107 Catcher
B147 Huntsman
D140 Loudmouth
A151 Minstrel
A167 Breeder Buyer
C157 Resource Analyzer

C084 Perennial Rye
A070 Lifting Machine

These were the other cards that I recommended in my smaller list. I was trying to make sure these were cards that were never good, instead of cards that were difficult to play but could be useful sometimes. Most people seem to be in favour of getting rid of cards that are always bad, and a lot of people support keeping cards that are normally bad but occasionally good. So personally I think we should agree on which cards are always bad.

Also - have you ever actually seen a game where Growing Farm was played and was good? I've never seen it be played in the 400 games I have played here (that I can remember).

[ColorfulPockets]

I don’t have specific thoughts on which weak cards could be banned, but I’m very much in favor of having a weak card ban list option! That’s essentially what I do for in-person games — I have a weak card ban list, then play draft 7/7 rather than 7/8 like I do online. Looking at one fewer card slightly speeds up the game with less experienced players, which is nice.

[cranesflyhigh]

I really dislike reducing the number of proposed banned weak cards even further. I understand the hesitation of cutting cards, sure, but keeping cards just because they might in some weird space in a thousand years make a mediocre appearance is not a good reason to keep a card around as it just pollutes the draft in most cases. I very much enjoy niche cards like Visionary or Rustic, and I would be opposed if they were called out to be banned - they have a place in the game, and can be effective, even if they die in the draft or a hand most of the time. Our cards proposed aren't these kind of cards, the cards we proposed to be banned actively reduce the amount of strategic choices due to being garbage, being bad even in the rare niche they are supposed to be good in. I strongly urge against the instinct to save bad cards due to hypothetical bad fantasies.

[natsumeg]

What do you think about these cards?

A107 Catcher
B147 Huntsman
D140 Loudmouth
A151 Minstrel
A167 Breeder Buyer
C157 Resource Analyzer

C084 Perennial Rye
A070 Lifting Machine

These were the other cards that I recommended in my smaller list. I was trying to make sure these were cards that were never good, instead of cards that were difficult to play but could be useful sometimes. Most people seem to be in favour of getting rid of cards that are always bad, and a lot of people support keeping cards that are normally bad but occasionally good. So personally I think we should agree on which cards are always bad.

Also - have you ever actually seen a game where Growing Farm was played and was good? I've never seen it be played in the 400 games I have played here (that I can remember).

Maybe not too bad:
D140 Loudmouth
I recently saw this generate 8 food. Porter is just strong, and this itself may be as strong as Bean Counter.
And comboing with Outskirts Director and Soil Scientist is a strength that Porter doesn't have.

Characteristic:
B147 Huntsman.
It is unique because it is the only one that can obtain boar from wood space. I agree with the opinion that there are too few situations where it can be used effectively.
A151 Minstrel
I like it because it is very unique. However, it is difficult to trigger, the return is unstable, and it is easy to block, so I understand the opinion that it is useless.

Nothing outstanding:
A107 Catcher
An even weaker version of Loudmouth, a weaker version of Porter, it is difficult to activate consciously and only gains 1 food when it activates.
A167 Breeder Buyer
I have never seen it work. There are many cards that gain 1 sheep or 1 boar, such as Buyer, Stable Sergeant, Cattle Buyer, Stockman, etc., so I don't think it is unique.
C157 Resource Analyzer
I cannot rate this. I have never used, been used, or attempted to use it.
C084 Perennial Rye
Can do the same job with Silage and Pure Breeder, neither of which are powerful cards.
A070 Lifting Machine
Asparagus Knife, Clearing Spade, and Crudite can do similar roles and are easier to play, although Melon Patch might be happier with it.


I have seen Growing Farm used once (before the new card was added).
Since Big Country is banned, I think this, a smaller version of Big Country, should stay.
Whatever, I don't want many bans.
I would like to hear as much input from the average player if possible, since everyone discussing here is a experienced player.

[torvaldur_makan]

I really dislike reducing the number of proposed banned weak cards even further. I understand the hesitation of cutting cards, sure, but keeping cards just because they might in some weird space in a thousand years make a mediocre appearance is not a good reason to keep a card around as it just pollutes the draft in most cases. I very much enjoy niche cards like Visionary or Rustic, and I would be opposed if they were called out to be banned - they have a place in the game, and can be effective, even if they die in the draft or a hand most of the time. Our cards proposed aren't these kind of cards, the cards we proposed to be banned actively reduce the amount of strategic choices due to being garbage, being bad even in the rare niche they are supposed to be good in. I strongly urge against the instinct to save bad cards due to hypothetical bad fantasies.

Totally agree. If we are to do a weak card ban list, then let's ban weak cards.

If you want to play games with that once-in-a-lifetime opportunity where you can actually play AND gain something off of Facades Carving, then don't play with this banlist.

[cranesflyhigh]

Just as a note (and to revive this thread a little): weak banlists are implemented in other games too. I recently made a small excursion to Feast of Odin (didn't much vibe with it - yet -, but was fun to experience), and that game also has a "hard" and "soft" banlist for occupation cards, which is basically banlist for strong and weak cards. It seems apparent that the game's players generally don't like being presented with terrible options.

Having bad cards removed increases the strategic choices people make, so I still strongly hope a soft banlist of sorts is a possibility. Personally I would prefer draft 8 with this option implemented as the arena setting. Not sure where the talks currently are, if Acerbic reads this, I would be very thankful for an update.

[Acerbic]

Hi, apologies for the long silence. We received approval from Lookout, so I'll implement this soon.

[lezurichois]

If such an option to ban weak is implemented, I would be for something along the line of Alex’s middle ground proposal:

A107 Catcher
A154 Paymaster
B147 Huntsman
D140 Loudmouth
A100 Curator
A110 Roughcaster
A151 Minstrel
A167 Breeder Buyer
C157 Resource Analyzer
C154 Twin Researcher
D165 Pig Stalker
B101 Furniture Carpenter
E108 Blackberry Farmer
D116 Tree Inspector

C084 Perennial Rye
A070 Lifting Machine
B052 Growing Farm