No Time Limit shouldn't mean Training Mode

[sourisdudesert]

But until I see statistics proving otherwise, I still assume that almost no one got trapped in games with people on their friends list,

As an average, 10 issues each day, and considering this represent a really small number of games (the vast majority of no time limit are played in training mode), this is a lot.

If you want to have a look, here is the exact list of the 12 tables that have issues the day before we stop this feature: 326045720, 326015675, 326009099,
325961184, 325945673, 325920427, 325851822, 325831954, 325801249, 325793197, 325793330, 325776954.

So yeah, 10 times a day, players were losing ELO and got penalties because they were "trapped" into a game without time limit, despite they are playing with friends.

[T72on1]

As said in a previous reaction, then people should reconsider who is on their friend list for sure :/ . I have never had this happen iirc.

[Rojaz]

I agree with most previous posts. You're doing all you can and doing (in general) an amazing job.

However, adding someone as a 'Friend' is a choice and bears a certain resonsibility. Which was reflected in the fact that you could only start competitive games without time limit if you were listed as Friends. Complaining afterwards if one of your friends is bowing out, on purpose or otherwise, is the penalty you accepted when starting the game in the first place.

[somukeru]

So, again

• We did not remove the possibility to play without time limit, we just made it non-competitive (= no elo).
• Please use "Training mode" (infinite sign on the new lobby) if you want to play with no time limit
• For those who want to still get/lose ELO points, you cannot do it without time limit BUT a very good alternative is to play with the slowest speed (1 move every 2 days), and even with that, if some player is over allotted time, you can ignore this and do not expel him/her.

None of these options is as convenient as what we had before. Now we have to give up on ELOs, or play with that nagging red clock bugging all the time, and make sure no one clicks to accept a game before setting the options.

[Shivaware]

But until I see statistics proving otherwise, I still assume that almost no one got trapped in games with people on their friends list,

As an average, 10 issues each day, and considering this represent a really small number of games (the vast majority of no time limit are played in training mode), this is a lot.

If you want to have a look, here is the exact list of the 12 tables that have issues the day before we stop this feature: 326045720, 326015675, 326009099,
325961184, 325945673, 325920427, 325851822, 325831954, 325801249, 325793197, 325793330, 325776954.

So yeah, 10 times a day, players were losing ELO and got penalties because they were "trapped" into a game without time limit, despite they are playing with friends.

Thank you for listing these game ids. It wasn't immediately clear to me how to look up these games. I used the create bug report tool to do it and I guess that seemed to work okay. I went through each game and will tabulate how long each one lasted before a player quit.

326045720: 12/12/2022 12:33:06 PM to 12:35:59 PM
326015675: 12/12/2022 11:19:40 AM to 11:23:58 AM
326009099: 12/12/2022 10:59:51 AM to 11:03:43 AM
325961184: 12/12/2022 8:16:05 AM to 8:42:46 AM
325945673: 12/12/2022 6:55:44 AM to 7:49:41 AM
325920427: 12/12/2022 5:49:23 AM to 5:53:56 AM
325851822: 12/11/2022 10:58:40 PM to 10:58:50 PM
325831954: 12/11/2022 8:38:30 PM to 8:40:38 PM
325801249: 12/11/2022 6:17:22 PM to 6:46:13 PM
325793197: 12/11/2022 4:40:23 PM to 4:44:18 PM
325793330: 12/11/2022 3:56:24 PM (quit was first message)
325776954:12/11/2022 2:41:15 PM to 12/13/2022 12:17:23 PM

It looks like a player quit after less than 5 minutes in 8 of these games.

Were these people able to have multiple no-time games going at once, or was it counted as a real-time game? If people were limited to only one at a time, then you could feel trapped. The solution in this case would be to classify these games as turn-based and let people play in multiple ones.

I will also add my thanks to the BGA people for working hard trying to improve the site all the time. I know it must be depressing when you receive complaints about almost every change you make.

[Cotj]

Bring back this feature, I play a lot on here with friends, and this was one of the selling points. As a parent/professional I might get busy for a day and not be able to get to a game for a few days. My friends all understand and it was nice to not have to have the pressure of logging in constantly.

If anything keep it is a"Premium" Feature. For those of us paying for BGA, I think it is a nice perk.

[Cotj]

But until I see statistics proving otherwise, I still assume that almost no one got trapped in games with people on their friends list,

As an average, 10 issues each day, and considering this represent a really small number of games (the vast majority of no time limit are played in training mode), this is a lot.

If you want to have a look, here is the exact list of the 12 tables that have issues the day before we stop this feature: 326045720, 326015675, 326009099,
325961184, 325945673, 325920427, 325851822, 325831954, 325801249, 325793197, 325793330, 325776954.

So yeah, 10 times a day, players were losing ELO and got penalties because they were "trapped" into a game without time limit, despite they are playing with friends.

Thank you for listing these game ids. It wasn't immediately clear to me how to look up these games. I used the create bug report tool to do it and I guess that seemed to work okay. I went through each game and will tabulate how long each one lasted before a player quit.

326045720: 12/12/2022 12:33:06 PM to 12:35:59 PM
326015675: 12/12/2022 11:19:40 AM to 11:23:58 AM
326009099: 12/12/2022 10:59:51 AM to 11:03:43 AM
325961184: 12/12/2022 8:16:05 AM to 8:42:46 AM
325945673: 12/12/2022 6:55:44 AM to 7:49:41 AM
325920427: 12/12/2022 5:49:23 AM to 5:53:56 AM
325851822: 12/11/2022 10:58:40 PM to 10:58:50 PM
325831954: 12/11/2022 8:38:30 PM to 8:40:38 PM
325801249: 12/11/2022 6:17:22 PM to 6:46:13 PM
325793197: 12/11/2022 4:40:23 PM to 4:44:18 PM
325793330: 12/11/2022 3:56:24 PM (quit was first message)
325776954:12/11/2022 2:41:15 PM to 12/13/2022 12:17:23 PM

It looks like a player quit after less than 5 minutes in 8 of these games.

Were these people able to have multiple no-time games going at once, or was it counted as a real-time game? If people were limited to only one at a time, then you could feel trapped. The solution in this case would be to classify these games as turn-based and let people play in multiple ones.

I will also add my thanks to the BGA people for working hard trying to improve the site all the time. I know it must be depressing when you receive complaints about almost every change you make.

To counter this though, BGA will auto quit a game that has been inactive for a time. Why not just decrease that timer to like 1-2 weeks, from the current month?
I had a friend who stopped playing on BGA, the game sat in my view as their turn, then it just auto-quit with no penalty to me about a month later.

[Silene]

I haven't used "no time limit"-option often but I remember that when I had chosen real-time in the big drop down panel on top of the screen and then chosen no time limit, that it showed with green mark in my current tables list while when i had chosen turn-based first, it was brown. that never resulted in any problems for me because i usually played them quickly - but maybe the problem was indeed people choosing no time limit from the real-time-lobby and thus getting a per-se-realtime-table with it's restrictions like not being able to join other real-time games, a green and animated table icon in the upper right corner that constantly brings you to this game even if it's not your turn (and potentially earlier auto-close of inactive table I guess). Maybe it would've already fixed all problems to classify all no-time-limit-tables as turn-based? That's just speculation from my side here, but it would explain why those tables where people felt trapped indeed all seem to have existed only for a very short time...
When they felt trapped after only a couple of minutes so much that they felt they had to quit the game - they would've also quit if it was a turn-based table with any time limit (even the fastest), because that wouldn't have timed out by then either. I don't think the no time-limit option had anything to do with them quitting unless they were restricted to no other real-time games (or hit their limit of turn-based-games).
Has anyone asked them "why did you quit after only 4 minutes?" or did they complain?

However I think it should be possible to get used to slow turn-based play and just get used to the red clock. It doesn't hurt when playing with your friends! And you can switch off the e-mail-notifications about players running out of time in your settings btw. Also it makes it possible to abandon without the other player haveing to log in (and without waiting for 30 days time-out), should all of you decide IRL that you won't continue that game.

Nevertheless it might be a nice idea to implement an additional 1move/week setting for those who are struggling now?

[Jellby]

When a player runs out of time, could we have an additional option besides expelling the player? Something like Ignore time limits for this player? That could remove the clock for the player (so no more anxiety seeing your time run out) and still allow to expel the player at any moment (so no being trapped). I guess that could be used between friends.

Another option could be hide my clock, and that would hide the clock from your view only. Other players would still see you're out of time, and could expel you, but we assume that won't happen among friends. Those who are bugged by the red clock could just use that option and keep going.

[Cotj]

When a player runs out of time, could we have an additional option besides expelling the player? Something like Ignore time limits for this player? That could remove the clock for the player (so no more anxiety seeing your time run out) and still allow to expel the player at any moment (so no being trapped). I guess that could be used between friends.

Another option could be hide my clock, and that would hide the clock from your view only. Other players would still see you're out of time, and could expel you, but we assume that won't happen among friends. Those who are bugged by the red clock could just use that option and keep going.

The problem for me is not the red clock, but that I am getting Karam hits when it does not matter. If you run out of time constantly, eventually your Karama gets hits which then messes with what games outside that you can join, and tournaments.