There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Tournaments organization / Organisation des tournois
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Mathew5000
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by Mathew5000 »

FSKFSK wrote: 04 November 2024, 06:30 My favorite solution is looking at time remaining vs completion percentage. Example: If a game is 80% completed and only 50% of the total time is uses (say 5/10 days), then skip should be disabled. If a game is 10% completed and 50% of the total time was used, then skip should be allowed. That would at least eliminate "skip when the game is 1-2 moves from ending and someone just barely runs out of time".

My proposal is "If percentage time used is less than completion percentage of the game, disable skip." By "total time", I refer to the maximum game length set in the tournament. (10 days, 15 days, 7 days, etc.).
Okay, maybe that would be better than the status quo, but it is more complex than necessary. Can you explain why you think that solution would be better than both of these:

https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=107708 (currently 42 upvotes): In any tournament game, where any player (or players) has exceeded their time limit, they can be expelled with the agreement of all players who have time remaining.

https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=35289 (currently 365 upvotes): No expulsions at all in multiplayer tournament games.
FSKFSK
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by FSKFSK »

If someone is flat-out gone and not playing, they should be skipped. If a game is close to finishing and someone is skipped, that's the abuse most people don't like.
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RazorOz
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by RazorOz »

I mean this issue actually combines from a whole bunch of other issues. They are mostly framework related, but there are some things creators should be doing too.

#1 Players should stop creating tournaments with silly clocks. I understand the want to finish things as fast as possible, everyone would love that, but you've also got to be realistic, and it's near guaranteed the vast majority of players would vastly prefer tournament games actually finish than the game times out because the clock is silly. There's two elements to this, #1 if your tournament involves more than 2 player games you have to recognise the possibility of bad time zone mixes which necessitates the need for longer clocks, each player is actually exponentially adding to the time a game takes, it won't be linear. #2 Creators need to at least have some idea about what they're creating,like actually knowing the game would be a start. For example a few months ago there was a real-time Heat tournament set to Championship mode with 12 minute clocks. Now I realise you could also say there's some onus on players to recognise this could never work, and players mostly stayed away for that reason, but still creating a tournament that can never possibly play to the settings listed is just silly, you can't possibly play 5 player 4 race Championships in less than an hour, it's physically impossible. All these types of tournaments do is drive players away and give tournaments a bad reputation.

#2 The option for longer clocks than 30 days. There's plenty of games here that I'm sure struggle to complete if you set 5-6 player turn based inside 30 days, I mean isn't Twilight Imperium meant to be coming at some point for example. Again to use a Heat example, a Championship tournament basically doesn't work under the current settings, you can just about complete tournaments in 30 days if every player is very fast, and there's no bad time zone clashes, but realistically you can't expect your 200 player tournament to have all players who are very fast. 45 and 60 day round clocks would be appreciated and used, most people setting their clock to 30 days right now really just means they would like the tournament games to finish if possible.

#3 There has to be some kind of option to skip a player, you can't just have no such option as look I don't mind if someone goes a little over their clock, as long as they're actually playing the game. The problem arises what about the player who signs up, plays for a few days, then doesn't log in for weeks, there has to be some mechanism to kick that player. It's how the system then handles this, in 2 player games it's of course very easy, that player is out, the other player goes through, but the current situation for multi-player games where it's just random again is silly and giving tournaments a bad reputation and making players stay away. You can argue that a player being kicked mid-game changes the dynamics of a game if you allowed them to play to the finish anyway, but is that solution more unfair than the current solution? I would argue no, at least if I knew that was the rules going in, I would know where I stand and could adapt, rather than who qualifies just being down to the flip of a coin which ruins the tournament.

#4 More admin controls for tournaments. Right now tournament admins can't kick/stop players signing up who they know are going to cause problems. So the same players can keep causing tournaments problems over and over, rather than just saying this player quit my last tournament I don't want them to enter this one. The ability to remove players and an option to say something like any player I have red thumbed cannot enter would significantly reduce the occurrences of this in itself.

Some of these wouldn't even require huge coding changes, like sure stuff like how a game handles a player quitting would, but the option for 45 day, 60 day rounds you'd think could easily be implemented, and in itself would lower the opportunities for a player to get skipped.
yfimc
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by yfimc »

I think there is not enough information presented to tournament creators about how much time to provide. And when you are signing uo for a tournament you don’t know if the creator allocated enough time or not. Why can’t players get a bit more time each turn like in regular turn based games? I also agree on the no skipping modification. I see the point that you might want to skip a player who has gone totally MIA but that seems like a less common issue, especially since skipping ends the game. If the game hasn’t finished by the time the tourney round is up then the most negative player loses anyway. How often would that cause a serious issue, vs how often are tournament players getting eliminated, not to mention their ELO and Karma destroyed, despite always playing their turn quickly during waking hours (when there are no set playing hours), and getting skipped just because it’s their turn shortly after bedtime.
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RazorOz
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by RazorOz »

yfimc wrote: 27 December 2024, 17:29 I think there is not enough information presented to tournament creators about how much time to provide. And when you are signing uo for a tournament you don’t know if the creator allocated enough time or not. Why can’t players get a bit more time each turn like in regular turn based games? I also agree on the no skipping modification. I see the point that you might want to skip a player who has gone totally MIA but that seems like a less common issue, especially since skipping ends the game. If the game hasn’t finished by the time the tourney round is up then the most negative player loses anyway. How often would that cause a serious issue, vs how often are tournament players getting eliminated, not to mention their ELO and Karma destroyed, despite always playing their turn quickly during waking hours (when there are no set playing hours), and getting skipped just because it’s their turn shortly after bedtime.
I mean there should be some onus on tournament creators to have an idea about the game they're creating, and thus the time requirements.Take the example I gave above of a real-time Championship Heat tournament with 12 minute clocks, that made me wonder if the creator had ever played the game mode before, given even a super fast player will use about 7-8 minutes clock per race, so you were never going to be able to complete potential 4 race Championships with 12 minute clocks per player and a 60 minute round timer. It's not too difficult to get time right, just look at other tournaments, or speak to other creators, and if in doubt, always side on the side of caution, particularly in multi-player, as you have to factor in bad time zone mixes.

On the last point there is some player responsibility too. Don't enter tournaments with ridiculous clocks, or playing hours the opposite of yours. It's impossible to get skipped and get your ELO and karma destroyed if you are actually playing quickly as long as you paid any attention to the tournament settings.
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nik592
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by nik592 »

On the other hand, for turn-based tournaments, there's a bit of a lack of options at the higher end. The two longest options are 15 days and 30 days (maximum for each game), which in a 5p game, gives each player 6 days. That seems like a lot, but whoever the game lands on for sleeping hours typically loses a whole day every 3. I've run out of time in these kind of tournaments frequently, despite logging on to BGA multiple times per day in my waking hours. I agree that time per turn models would be better, or the other suggestion is individual sleep times (eg. you get to nominate your 12 hours of waking and sleeping and it varies per player and only ticks down during your actual waking hours). Both are harder to implement, but even longer max times on tournaments would help (45 and 60 days are the suggested amounts), which would be super easy, but continues to fall on deaf ears.

Just to say that sometimes a creator is doing the best they can with options they have available. I can't speak to real-time tournaments as I don't play them, but I'm assuming the same applies there (and some games probably just don't suit the current tournament formats available).
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RazorOz
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by RazorOz »

nik592 wrote: 28 December 2024, 05:06 On the other hand, for turn-based tournaments, there's a bit of a lack of options at the higher end. The two longest options are 15 days and 30 days (maximum for each game), which in a 5p game, gives each player 6 days. That seems like a lot, but whoever the game lands on for sleeping hours typically loses a whole day every 3. I've run out of time in these kind of tournaments frequently, despite logging on to BGA multiple times per day in my waking hours. I agree that time per turn models would be better, or the other suggestion is individual sleep times (eg. you get to nominate your 12 hours of waking and sleeping and it varies per player and only ticks down during your actual waking hours). Both are harder to implement, but even longer max times on tournaments would help (45 and 60 days are the suggested amounts), which would be super easy, but continues to fall on deaf ears.

Just to say that sometimes a creator is doing the best they can with options they have available. I can't speak to real-time tournaments as I don't play them, but I'm assuming the same applies there (and some games probably just don't suit the current tournament formats available).
I agree there should be an option higher than 30 days, I mention it in my post just a few posts up, there should be options for 45 and 60 days.

I would have to know what game you're talking about, and what it's like,but if I believed a tournament simply isn't possible I just don't enter it, I only enter tournaments that have 30 day clocks, but that's because I don't believe anything else works for Heat tournaments which tend to be 5-6 player. Time zone mixes tends to mean what you're describing doesn't actually happen at say 5 player tournaments, if you take a turn before bed each night, you don't just lose an exact 7-8 hours off your clock every night, as the players behind you don't just all act instantly.

While I wouldn't be against time per turn models, I assume the reason they're not used is they don't give an exact time frame for a round, eg. I have 4 turns per day regular games that last 4 days, others last 17 without anyone going into the red.

The sleep times kinda already exists with playing hours, you could create your own tournament to your playing hours. I don't use this feature, because it's too messy when trying to create a tournament for players from all around the world, but this is why it exists.

If you are a creator you can also explicitly put up "DON'T SKIP PLAYERS" in the comments, most players will listen, particularly if you monitor it too.
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jolinha
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by jolinha »

Yeah, there are unfortunately a lot of unfair players. Yes there are time limits. But now it was Christmas and some players skipped after some few hours l was late. I had sent a message BEFORE, one even said it’s no problem and did it anyway. The other one did it, when it was obvious l would win. BGA should give bad Karma points to those ppl, but there are no measures against that shitty behaviour. :roll:
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nik592
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by nik592 »

RazorOz wrote: 28 December 2024, 12:03 I would have to know what game you're talking about, and what it's like,but if I believed a tournament simply isn't possible I just don't enter it,
You don't always know when you enter a tournament. The worst one for the format I ever entered was someone setup Race for the Galaxy with drafting with like 5-6 players? So each player needs to draft something like a 30-40 card deck. Granted, that's slowgoing, but I actually didn't mind it so much. But by the time the draft was done, most players were over time, because we were essentially doing 30-40 turns with simultaneous clocks. I had to check my history - it looks like I played 3 games in that tournament, and two completed within the 30 days, despite all the time penalties. The third, someone did a boot, because of course it wouldn't happen that everyone in the tournament would be reasonable. But I'm also assuming there may be other games that have issues with the current format. Frankly anything with simultaneous play tends to have issues (7 Wonders is another I've participated in with issues).
RazorOz wrote: 28 December 2024, 12:03 Time zone mixes tends to mean what you're describing doesn't actually happen at say 5 player tournaments, if you take a turn before bed each night, you don't just lose an exact 7-8 hours off your clock every night, as the players behind you don't just all act instantly.
True, at larger player counts, the loss of time overnight shouldn't be as big. I'm more talking to my own experience which is probably mostly 4p or lower, including some 2p games, and I know in those cases (2p) I can easily expect to lose 5-6 hours per night. If people kick me, I mostly just accept it (although as mentioned, I do red thumb those who kick someone who is clearly trying to play as often as possible, such as myself). I also get frustrated (and red thumb) when players kick another player in that same position. Tournaments aren't ideal, we work with what we have, but that does require some general courtesy on the part of others. And given that a game automatically ends at the set time limit, kicking players generally isn't required, unless a player has just vanished for days on end.
RazorOz wrote: 28 December 2024, 12:03 While I wouldn't be against time per turn models, I assume the reason they're not used is they don't give an exact time frame for a round, eg. I have 4 turns per day regular games that last 4 days, others last 17 without anyone going into the red.
Yes, I've heard this too. But surely that's a choice the players entering the tournament make? If you want fixed time tournaments so you know what time is going to happen between rounds, then choose those and avoid time per turn tournaments. For those of us who don't need to know exactly how long between rounds, why can't we have tournaments with the same format as exists elsewhere on BGA?
RazorOz wrote: 28 December 2024, 12:03 The sleep times kinda already exists with playing hours, you could create your own tournament to your playing hours. I don't use this feature, because it's too messy when trying to create a tournament for players from all around the world, but this is why it exists.
Yes, I'm aware. But judging by the fact that I've never seen any game in any format reflect playing hours that would suit me, and that I live on the opposite side of the world the the majority (EU/US) of players, I suspect such a tournament would get minimal take up. Additionally, some people don't read or don't understand playing hours, so you can get bootings there anyway because people don't understand what they signed up for. I mean, I get the frustration if someone has signed up for a playing hours tournament and then proceeds to be inactive through the playing hours (resulting in another player booting them), but I come here to play games - I don't want to constantly have games ending due to bootings.
RazorOz wrote: 28 December 2024, 12:03 If you are a creator you can also explicitly put up "DON'T SKIP PLAYERS" in the comments, most players will listen, particularly if you monitor it too.
I've seen this, and got booted. I actually told the tournament creator if they wanted that, they should probably give more time to players (at which point I learned that times per game are certain values only and quite limited - before that I had assumed creators could freely create whatever time limits they wanted for games, which would also make sense as an option). To be fair, I don't always read the comments posted by the tournament creator, I'm more interested in the set tournament options. But I also don't kick players in any setting unless they disappear for days on end.
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BananaHarambe
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by BananaHarambe »

If I catch anyone abusing the skip player button in one of my tournaments for an important game I will shame them in the game result comments as well as their final placement announcement. Haven’t done it yet, but I would be willing to do it to someone that abuses the skip.

If it’s questionable and one player is timing out in multiple games and the slowing down the whole tournament then I’m willing to look the other way. Players that have rush down a player’s clock in a 2 player game with 10 day duration and time them out after only 5/6 days will get named and shamed. A player timing out someone on the 9th or 10th day when the other player is -48 hours will get a pass.

Just my personal opinion on what’s reasonable. I will I had the power to disable skips or require a more difficult threshold to skip like -48 hours. Sometimes time zones and schedules don’t work out fairly with turn order.
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