Poker Texas Hold'em is now Alpha

[frankenStain]

Does adding a gambling game affect the user base of the website? At the moment, all the games are family friendly, and there is no mechanism to gamble on here, while poker doesn't work as well without real stakes. I'm fine with more games being added generally, but this one feels like something that should be left for the dedicated sites

good god...

Yes, that is the problem. I don't know if you follow US politics, but a few years ago they banned sites that offered gambling (it's one of their favourite biblical sins to crack down on). With how puritanical a number of states are going, it just doesn't seem worth the effort of adding poker compared to the risk of the whole site being banned with it. The fact is, it's just not a good game when you take away the real stakes either because the player behaviours get weird.

I'm not against the game, I enjoy it when I get to play it properly, it just doesn't seem like a good fit for here

just saw the original post was in january ...-.- let's hope they didn't stop development of the game - especially not because of some nonsense US policy thing - would be sad if the insane amounts of ... crap ... generated in their "diplomatic" state, would spill over to totally unrelated things, like BGA....

[ViolentSilence]

just saw the original post was in january ...-.- let's hope they didn't stop development of the game - especially not because of some nonsense US policy thing - would be sad if the insane amounts of ... crap ... generated in their "diplomatic" state, would spill over to totally unrelated things, like BGA....

I don't think the US is the only place that skews puritanical, gambling is taboo in all the Abrahamic faiths so any deeply religious state of that type would maybe find that justification in banning a site if it enabled the activity. The worry about the US specifically is that it represents a decent proportion of the user base. Now with VPNs being in much more common use, I'm curious how the US ban is enforced on online poker sites (Credit card providers being liable maybe?), but there are only 5 states where it is legal. Just read up on Europe and that can also get a bit complex about what is legal in each market.

This doesn't affect me particularly as I'm in the UK, we have sports betting on the high street, so I think we may be one of the more liberal places in Europe over this. I just thought it was something worth alerting people to, even though I don't particularly agree with it and I hope at least the management team have had some discussions about it because of the potential legal/PR issues (would the site have to go strictly 16+ or 18+ to avoid being accused of encouraging gambling in children?*). Though again, I don't think poker with phoney stakes is that good a game compared to even something like playing it with a £5 buy in, so it's not one I'll be playing even if it is added. At least backgammon is a decent game in the roll and move genre with just enough strategy and tactics available to it, that one survives much better without the gambling part.

I'm morbidly curious how poker would interact with the ELO system given how that has created lots of weird behaviours in other games... Not to mention all the RNG arguments that crop up...



[*-Off topic, but it's something that annoys me in the UK that we allow gambling from 16 for the lottery, but 18 plus for everything else. If it was the same for both I'd be fine, but it makes no sense to me that the form of gambling we allow for the younger age group is the one where there is less skill/judgement involved. The lottery is also the only form of gambling where you can advertise based on how good it is to win. It might be pedantic, but it doesn't seem logical to me that the forms of gambling we give the easiest access to are the ones where it's much more likely that people lose...]

[frankenStain]

just saw the original post was in january ...-.- let's hope they didn't stop development of the game - especially not because of some nonsense US policy thing - would be sad if the insane amounts of ... crap ... generated in their "diplomatic" state, would spill over to totally unrelated things, like BGA....

[*-Off topic, but it's something that annoys me in the UK that we allow gambling from 16 for the lottery, but 18 plus for everything else. If it was the same for both I'd be fine, but it makes no sense to me that the form of gambling we allow for the younger age group is the one where there is less skill/judgement involved. The lottery is also the only form of gambling where you can advertise based on how good it is to win. It might be pedantic, but it doesn't seem logical to me that the forms of gambling we give the easiest access to are the ones where it's much more likely that people lose...]

you seem to have a good lobby for lotteries over there, and/or some quite opportunistic politicians.. and yes, it's stupid...

about the poker here - I thought the obvious argument, and what makes every legal restriction to this site bs, is, that there is no money involved. So, with nothing you can bet (of value), it is per definition no gambling - or did I miss anything ?? (being a game of chance alone doesn't make it gambling + most games involve chance)

[ViolentSilence]

you seem to have a good lobby for lotteries over there, and/or some quite opportunistic politicians.. and yes, it's stupid...

about the poker here - I thought the obvious argument, and what makes every legal restriction to this site bs, is, that there is no money involved. So, with nothing you can bet (of value), it is per definition no gambling - or did I miss anything ?? (being a game of chance alone doesn't make it gambling + most games involve chance)

That's the other side of the problem - the game gets weird when it's not being played for real stakes. Whether it's game-breaking or not will depend on individual perspectives, but for me it is. The game nearly breaks when you're playing with a divided up penny jar since a lot of the tension goes. It also gets in to questions about allowing kids on a site to learn to play a gambling game which is a public relations minefield. For some territories, gambling with fake currency (even if they are just called points) could still be a moral Rubicon. I'm not personally convinced, but I know my bias skews fairly liberal on gambling.

So essentially my problem with Poker on here is double edged - if you allow gambling it takes the site in to difficulty legal areas. If you don't or even have some kind of synthetic gambling, you're just adding a bad game to the site! Honestly, I think Saint Poker is a very good game that is already on here as it takes the core mechanics of the hand rankings, but adds in hand management as an alternative to the gambling as the 'engine' of the game. It takes away most of the potential issues - you can maybe make a weak argument that teaching the hand rankings is leading people to gambling but it's unlikely to convince even the most conservative of judges/politicians.

[frankenStain]

about the poker here - I thought the obvious argument, and what makes every legal restriction to this site bs, is, that there is no money involved. So, with nothing you can bet (of value), it is per definition no gambling - or did I miss anything ?? (being a game of chance alone doesn't make it gambling + most games involve chance)

That's the other side of the problem - the game gets weird when it's not being played for real stakes. Whether it's game-breaking or not will depend on individual perspectives, but for me it is. The game nearly breaks when you're playing with a divided up penny jar since a lot of the tension goes. It also gets in to questions about allowing kids on a site to learn to play a gambling game which is a public relations minefield. For some territories, gambling with fake currency (even if they are just called points) could still be a moral Rubicon. I'm not personally convinced, but I know my bias skews fairly liberal on gambling.

So essentially my problem with Poker on here is double edged - if you allow gambling it takes the site in to difficulty legal areas. If you don't or even have some kind of synthetic gambling, you're just adding a bad game to the site! Honestly, I think Saint Poker is a very good game that is already on here as it takes the core mechanics of the hand rankings, but adds in hand management as an alternative to the gambling as the 'engine' of the game. It takes away most of the potential issues - you can maybe make a weak argument that teaching the hand rankings is leading people to gambling but it's unlikely to convince even the most conservative of judges/politicians.

just very brief.
it's an other (probably worse) game without the stakes.
it still seems a moot point - one of the reasons is: why the hell, should this be a political, or social question, whether a game exists on this platform (since its nothing more than a game - it's just artificially is made to be something more, bloated up by potential opinions (like of potential parents, who would see that as a gateway drug to real gambling...)) .... I do get the arguments constructed; just think it[the whole question] is stupid in essence ...
(also seeing some opportunistic lawyer, in some region, where for some stupid reason this might be a gray area, would try to make a case - but also if that's possible, other games could also be targeted, just because they are used for gambling in some region...)

[gnocchi donkey]

I am sure this is mentioned before, but with Texas holdem not only a gambling game but EVERYWHERE and NOT a game that BOARDGAMERS play is it really something to have on this site so that people that just come to play another poker game on a different platform are using server space that I can guarantee that no-one coming to play free holdem would be donating money for premium status translation or interest in boardgames the gets designers games sold. This started out a boardgames community site ever since I joined under a different name in 2015 I did the premium when it was a option just to donate because I was so happy to find a site with boardgames that I didn't have to be a mouse master like TTS for example. Whats next.... slots? its hard enough with short timers that ruin games, but I-phone poker bandits might check out a game and lose interest so quit quit and ruin it worse then we already have... it just brings in another crowd that we don't need and doesn't share interests

[frankenStain]

I am sure this is mentioned before, but with Texas holdem not only a gambling game but EVERYWHERE and NOT a game that BOARDGAMERS play is it really something to have on this site so that people that just come to play another poker game on a different platform are using server space that I can guarantee that no-one coming to play free holdem would be donating money for premium status translation or interest in boardgames the gets designers games sold. This started out a boardgames community site ever since I joined under a different name in 2015 I did the premium when it was a option just to donate because I was so happy to find a site with boardgames that I didn't have to be a mouse master like TTS for example. Whats next.... slots? its hard enough with short timers that ruin games, but I-phone poker bandits might check out a game and lose interest so quit quit and ruin it worse then we already have... it just brings in another crowd that we don't need and doesn't share interests

you seem to have lost some punctuation marks... quite a hard read

[Ludo Dave]

I am sure this is mentioned before, but with Texas holdem not only a gambling game but EVERYWHERE and NOT a game that BOARDGAMERS play is it really something to have on this site so that people that just come to play another poker game on a different platform are using server space that I can guarantee that no-one coming to play free holdem would be donating money for premium status translation or interest in boardgames the gets designers games sold. This started out a boardgames community site ever since I joined under a different name in 2015 I did the premium when it was a option just to donate because I was so happy to find a site with boardgames that I didn't have to be a mouse master like TTS for example. Whats next.... slots? its hard enough with short timers that ruin games, but I-phone poker bandits might check out a game and lose interest so quit quit and ruin it worse then we already have... it just brings in another crowd that we don't need and doesn't share interests

I think there is a reasonable overlap between a) boardgamers and b) poker players who are just as happy not to play for money while winning bragging rights over their friends. Poker played without money is just another game with a scoreboard, albeit with a different feel from a money game. The "iPhone poker bandits" will not even be attracted to a hold 'em game here.

But to the broader point: it is approaching 100% certainty that hold 'em will not be implemented on BGA beyond Alpha. Development of the game is moribund here and has not progressed out of Alpha in, what? Is it 12 months or more? BGA has fast-tracked other games and significantly expanded its unrestricted inventory in the same time.

No one in a position to bring hold 'em forward seems to want it here.

[dannyant]

Can I get an invite to play?

[max827w]

Can join me please at the alpha test?