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Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 17 June 2024, 07:55
by Fusselkopp
If you had the pick between Thorgate and Inventrix (non-corp era) with a decent choice of starting cards: Which one would you pick?
Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 17 June 2024, 10:17
by Camzeee
Fusselkopp wrote: ↑17 June 2024, 07:55
If you had the pick between Thorgate and Inventrix (non-corp era) with a decent choice of starting cards: Which one would you pick?
It depends on what cards. If there are Science cards like AI Central then Inventrix. If there are power synergies then Thorgate. Not ideal obviously but you can make it work.
Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 17 June 2024, 10:44
by Corbz
Fusselkopp wrote: ↑17 June 2024, 07:55
If you had the pick between Thorgate and Inventrix (non-corp era) with a decent choice of starting cards: Which one would you pick?
I think you are asking explicitly about non-corp era (i.e. current Arena setting). If that's the case both of these are weak corps, and I actually think inventrix is worse than thorgate in this format (Note: In the corp era version I think Inventrix is usually better than Thorgate).
Rationale being there is a higher proportion of power hungry cards (early cities actually ok in this format). Also, science isn't a viable strategy in non-corp era so the science tag on Inventrix is nearly worthless (except for the award). I'd only take Inventrix if I had very strong plant cards in starting hand.
Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 17 June 2024, 14:57
by RoyalRook
Just want to put a time stamp here: I was so wrong about Credicor being the Mars Overlord, it's actually Tharsis. In a skilled player's hand, Tharsis is almost unbeatable in the none corp era format on the Tharsis board...it's a Tharsis world and we are living in it.
The build it econ, draft priorities, Award MS advantage just put Tharsis head and shoulder above the rest. With Domed Crater in head, Tharsis often achieves 7+ MC prod, a greenery conversion and top two city spots on board gen 1/2. At that point, you have the best econ rather safe banker, mayor with candidacy on gardener. The game is mostly in hand. Tharsis just have too much money and board control, no one can threat the game like Tharsis with impactful cards like Arctic Algae etc...which make draft utterly diffcult while Tharsis can essentially play whatever with it's large initial cash pool.
A Tharsis player who understood this will never SP a city, b/c your true power lies in your cash. Tharsis is a bully, who strives to dominant and control every aspects of the board. When play it right, it often scores 85+ vs >65 against others after standard project couple asteroids to end on gen 8.
Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 18 June 2024, 04:30
by Anatana
HighlanderKG wrote: ↑05 May 2024, 13:45
Starwarrior1128 wrote: ↑05 May 2024, 10:38
Tharsis is so OP that I can't even believe it made it to the Official game. When any city tile is placed ON MARS, increase your MC production 1 step. No other Corp. gets a benefit when some other player does something. It would be like if Ecoline gets to increase plant production whenever someone places a Greenery.
Not sure if being sarcastic or serious
Tharsis is average, it gets better with higher player counts. If we talk about 2-3 player games - completely average corp.
Building cities early is a bad strategy even as Tharsis, because ROI on that is awful. As Tharsis, you will pay 22 MC to get 2 MC production. That means 11 generations should pass to give you back the money you gave! That's beyond inefficient. Three player game, especially with no-corp era, should end in gen 9-10 tops, so you won't even get the value you invested, and you gain 0 points as is. Only when you make a greenery next to a city you get 1 bonus point.
You can consistently win this game with 0 cities, if you have a great plant production you need 1-2 cities MOST. Mayor is the worst milestone in the game.
Corp that is benefiting from building cities the most is not even Tharsis. It is Mining Guild. When you get huge steel production, you will struggle to convert it to MC. Cities then become efficient, under assumption you have enough energy (also mostly building tags) to consume. Mining guild can amp MC production from cities faster than Tharsis, because it will spend truckloads of steel on it.
If you were serious, I would kindly suggest you to reconsider your take on this game
Terraformer is the worst milestone, if you are counting how often it actually gets taken.
Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 18 June 2024, 08:52
by max827w
Fusselkopp wrote: ↑17 June 2024, 07:55
If you had the pick between Thorgate and Inventrix (non-corp era) with a decent choice of starting cards: Which one would you pick?
imho, with a city in hand thorgate, otherwise inventrix
Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 18 June 2024, 13:33
by Fusselkopp
max827w wrote: ↑18 June 2024, 08:52
Fusselkopp wrote: ↑17 June 2024, 07:55
If you had the pick between Thorgate and Inventrix (non-corp era) with a decent choice of starting cards: Which one would you pick?
imho, with a city in hand thorgate, otherwise inventrix
Yep, that’s what I did in the situation- and won (vs Helion and Phoblog)
Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 18 June 2024, 15:06
by lisiaczek
RoyalRook wrote: ↑31 May 2024, 18:42
I don't agree with early AI part of Highlander's statement though. If I can get AI down early, Inventrix it is. There is no other path I would choose over it, b/c why mess with perfection? I am just going to early AI and drag gg. Way higher potential to win, and I am all about winning, I don't care if it's ugly or not.
Going AI without developing economy is almost like forfeit. Unless you get super lucky and draw into global discounts you need to drag the game to like 14 gens to have a shot. AI is super costly, of course inventrix takes care of 1 sci tag, but you need to find and play other 2 and power. Even in best scenario AI will cost you 45 mc, and then you draw cards you can't play, because you have no money. Even planner looks horrible in that situatiion when opponent forces you to claim it early.
Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 18 June 2024, 17:41
by RoyalRook
lisiaczek wrote: ↑18 June 2024, 15:06
RoyalRook wrote: ↑31 May 2024, 18:42
I don't agree with early AI part of Highlander's statement though. If I can get AI down early, Inventrix it is. There is no other path I would choose over it, b/c why mess with perfection? I am just going to early AI and drag gg. Way higher potential to win, and I am all about winning, I don't care if it's ugly or not.
Going AI without developing economy is almost like forfeit. Unless you get super lucky and draw into global discounts you need to drag the game to like 14 gens to have a shot. AI is super costly, of course inventrix takes care of 1 sci tag, but you need to find and play other 2 and power. Even in best scenario AI will cost you 45 mc, and then you draw cards you can't play, because you have no money. Even planner looks horrible in that situatiion when opponent forces you to claim it early.
No you don't understand, a random card is valued at 4 MC, AI is the mother loving income. What's more terrifying about AI people doesn't understand is that it take half off of a new draft. So if you AI draw last gen and first to act on the current gen, or last to act but first to draw, you see 6 straight cards off the top. Furthermore, those two cards and 1st card you take from the draft, 3 cards total are completely hidden from your opponent(s), creating escalating situations of them drawing dead with generation progression. Do you understand how powerful that is in a card based game? Especially for 2p in a skilled player's hand? AI Central and Earth Catapults are pure alphas, never pass them to me. On another thought, they are pure trash actually, disregard everything I just said, pass them to me and only me always.
Re: Best and Worst Corps discussion
Posted: 19 June 2024, 00:06
by Mars321
Anatana wrote: ↑18 June 2024, 04:30
HighlanderKG wrote: ↑05 May 2024, 13:45
Starwarrior1128 wrote: ↑05 May 2024, 10:38
Tharsis is so OP that I can't even believe it made it to the Official game. When any city tile is placed ON MARS, increase your MC production 1 step. No other Corp. gets a benefit when some other player does something. It would be like if Ecoline gets to increase plant production whenever someone places a Greenery.
Not sure if being sarcastic or serious
Tharsis is average, it gets better with higher player counts. If we talk about 2-3 player games - completely average corp.
Building cities early is a bad strategy even as Tharsis, because ROI on that is awful. As Tharsis, you will pay 22 MC to get 2 MC production. That means 11 generations should pass to give you back the money you gave! That's beyond inefficient. Three player game, especially with no-corp era, should end in gen 9-10 tops, so you won't even get the value you invested, and you gain 0 points as is. Only when you make a greenery next to a city you get 1 bonus point.
You can consistently win this game with 0 cities, if you have a great plant production you need 1-2 cities MOST. Mayor is the worst milestone in the game.
Corp that is benefiting from building cities the most is not even Tharsis. It is Mining Guild. When you get huge steel production, you will struggle to convert it to MC. Cities then become efficient, under assumption you have enough energy (also mostly building tags) to consume. Mining guild can amp MC production from cities faster than Tharsis, because it will spend truckloads of steel on it.
If you were serious, I would kindly suggest you to reconsider your take on this game
Terraformer is the worst milestone, if you are counting how often it actually gets taken.
This is probably true at most sub 200 and even sub 350 elo tables. At 450+ tables terraformer is pretty commonly taken. Mayor should be the rarest because most high elo players recognize that in most situations it’s not good to take, but ofc there are always situations were anything is good even mayor(common example being mining guild taking mayor or tharsis with research outpost and cupola/noctis).
Additionally just because something isn’t done (in regards to you saying you don’t see terraformer get taken often) doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. The best way to tell is to observe replays on high elo players games(450+) or watch videos of games played by skilled players. Over valuing mayor and under valuing terraformer usually happens at low elo tables.
Ofc not every game is a terraformer game(ie engine games), and there’s rarely a sign saying “terraformer was bad to take here” so you have to know what to look for to a degree.