Weak Cards Banlist Discussion!

[alexwjb]

Hi all, in light of recent events here is an update to the proposed list of minors to be added to the weak ban list:

Current proposed additions to weak card banlist
A27 Oven Site
A63 Dutch Windmill
A76 Cob
A084 Silage
B64 Mill Wheel
C034 Elephantgrass Plant
D23 Pioneering Spirit
D72 Stable Manure
D76 Social Benefits


Removed from suggestions
A22 Telegram
Several people have said they don't think this should be included, so it's not a consensus choice.

B38 Future Building Site
The text on this has been updated in the recent game update. It's a card that helps interesting strategies, and if not misunderstood is fun to play.

A73 Agricultural Fertilizers
The recent update fixed this card to work in situations where it was previously broken. We should give it a chance now it works better.


Already in weak card banlist
Lifting Machine, Cattle Farm, Perennial Rye


Others to consider
Please say if you think others should be included. Facades Carving, Trellises, Garden Claw, Civic Facade, Barley Mill, others?

[Joltarin]

Perhaps there could be two versions of the weak card ban list? One which bans most proposed cards and one which does not include the debated ones in the ban list?

Current proposed additions to weak card banlist
A27 Oven Site
A63 Dutch Windmill
A76 Cob
A084 Silage
B64 Mill Wheel
C034 Elephantgrass Plant
D23 Pioneering Spirit
D72 Stable Manure
D76 Social Benefits

Yes, D23 Pioneering Spirit is useless in most rounds, but it's great for getting veggies a little early. Remember the 4 cards that only apply to Cattle Market are useless in most rounds too.

Yes, D76 Social Benefits is tricky to use, but I like playing it sometimes.

I play A130 Mummy’s Boy and D024 Brotherly Love when I can get them and sometimes B150 Large Scale Farmer too.

D140 Loudmouth is debatable, since it synergizes well with C130 Outskirts Director and C093 Inner Districts Director. I don't recall ever playing Loudmouth though.

What do you guys think about B100 Cluterrer? Is it ever actually played?

[torvaldur_makan]

A73 Agricultural Fertilizers
The recent update fixed this card to work in situations where it was previously broken. We should give it a chance now it works better.

I didn't even know it was broken but it is still so weak that I think we should ban it.

Others to consider
Please say if you think others should be included. Facades Carving, Trellises, Garden Claw, Civic Facade, Barley Mill, others?

Yes, I am for banning these.

[torvaldur_makan]

D140 Loudmouth is debatable, since it synergizes well with C130 Outskirts Director and C093 Inner Districts Director. I don't recall ever playing Loudmouth though.

Making a very bad card (Loudmouth) almost playable with two other barely playable cards is not enough in my opinion. I think this has been proven already, as these have been at BGA for a long time by now.

What do you guys think about B100 Cluterrer? Is it ever actually played?

It has its uses. I played it successfully early on in revised, but never on BGA. I rather ban it for it's annoying card design.

[lFlowerl]

Yes, D23 Pioneering Spirit is useless in most rounds, but it's great for getting veggies a little early. Remember the 4 cards that only apply to Cattle Market are useless in most rounds too.

Yes, D76 Social Benefits is tricky to use, but I like playing it sometimes.

I think if we are banning weak cards, Pioneering Spirit is most likely a ban in my perspective. I think under no circumstances could 1 veg action in round 3~5 be efficient enough. (I think even with Carrot Museum or Museum caretaker it is not good enough.) The potential reno action is the tricky part for me as it may hypothetically provide some early clay/stone house combo activation, but I have never seen it happening before.

Not banning Social Benefits seems good for me. The value it can provide is not bad, especially when player can discard remaining foods in harvest. I can certainly see it having some play in high reed game.

[Acerbic]

Just wanted to chime in and say I'm happy to extend the list, but I'd like to see a bit more discussion, if possible. In particular it would be helpful to know which of the suggestions are acceptable to those who prefer a lighter touch.

[cranesflyhigh]

I feel slightly obliged to add: I did try D76 Social Benefits in a game of mine - and it was... okay. That game however did have the stars aligned for it: I had Forest Reviewer (reed to spare) with cookery for animal feeding and a Studio: so manipulating my food was pretty easy to do for the harvests. That said the stars did align for it, I was explicitly going for it and it wasn't game-winning. I am on the fence on this card. I am okay banning it, cause most of the games it is just dead and too awkward, and also might be a trap for newer players trying to make it work too hard. The minigame of it can be alluring, I agree, but I am on the mind that if we do a weak cards banlist, let's just ban weak cards - and in most cases Social Benefits is just that.

That said I am one of the more banhappy people around

[alexwjb]

Yes, D23 Pioneering Spirit is useless in most rounds, but it's great for getting veggies a little early. Remember the 4 cards that only apply to Cattle Market are useless in most rounds too.

Yes, D76 Social Benefits is tricky to use, but I like playing it sometimes.

I think if we are banning weak cards, Pioneering Spirit is most likely a ban in my perspective. I think under no circumstances could 1 veg action in round 3~5 be efficient enough. (I think even with Carrot Museum or Museum caretaker it is not good enough.) The potential reno action is the tricky part for me as it may hypothetically provide some early clay/stone house combo activation, but I have never seen it happening before.

Not banning Social Benefits seems good for me. The value it can provide is not bad, especially when player can discard remaining foods in harvest. I can certainly see it having some play in high reed game.

Re Pioneering Spirit - the option to get a vegetable is available in rounds 6-8, not 3-5. Since veg flips in round 8 or 9, it's not even especially early.

[alexwjb]

Just wanted to chime in and say I'm happy to extend the list, but I'd like to see a bit more discussion, if possible. In particular it would be helpful to know which of the suggestions are acceptable to those who prefer a lighter touch.

I am also very keen to hear more views.

In light of Flower and Cranes' last posts about Social Benefits, the proposed list to add to the weak card banlist is now:


A27 Oven Site
A63 Dutch Windmill
A76 Cob
A084 Silage
B64 Mill Wheel
C034 Elephantgrass Plant
D23 Pioneering Spirit
D72 Stable Manure

Does anyone want to make a case that any of these cards specifically should be kept off the list?

[Lumin_S]

Just wanted to chime in and say I'm happy to extend the list, but I'd like to see a bit more discussion, if possible. In particular it would be helpful to know which of the suggestions are acceptable to those who prefer a lighter touch.

I am also very keen to hear more views.

In light of Flower and Cranes' last posts about Social Benefits, the proposed list to add to the weak card banlist is now:


A27 Oven Site
A63 Dutch Windmill
A76 Cob
A084 Silage
B64 Mill Wheel
C034 Elephantgrass Plant
D23 Pioneering Spirit
D72 Stable Manure

Does anyone want to make a case that any of these cards specifically should be kept off the list?

Of these, I'd only vote for Silage and Stable Manure. Maybe Elephantgrass. I think it's insane to ban Mill Wheel (has a somewhat reasonable cost for a point) and Pioneering Spirit (it's free and has some niche uses - a very important class of card to exist IMO.)