Pythia v1.3 - visual aid helper for 7 Wonders BGA

[Tisaac]

The fact that this is cooperative doesn't change a thing.

That's like your wrong opinion. And here is why: not competitive games can have all the cheats they want for the players, because they are not competitive, cheats there apply to everyone the same way, it is not like pythia AT ALL, and even you must see that.

But Hanabi is a competitive game !! I joined several (physical) tournaments and we were playing with the original rule, with no way of stocking information expect by moving card around. So my question is : who are we to determine what is the "intent of the game and the designer" to know what should the adaptation on BGA looks like ? (unless you are the creator of Hanabi or 7Wonders ofc)
So again, I am not arguing about the fairness of this, or the fact that some players/tournaments would choose to play without it, that's up to them and of course the rules should be the same for all the players once the setup is choosed.
We are only arguing about whether this could enhance the gameplay for intermediate players to help them learn faster or not. Tadachini provided a list of 14 skills that he thinks are more important than memorization in this game and dschingis27 agreed on this aspect, but of course you may think that the memorization is very important in this game and we are just trying to know why you think that, so please stop say "cheating" at every single post like it's an explanation and just give your feeling about why is memorization so important in 7Wonders and why removing it would make the game less interesting.

Same for Bridge and Dominion, I personnally think that this memorization thing is a bummer for new/intermediate players and that it could enhance the game to be able to look at discarded and collected cards to focus on more strategic aspect, and again you might disagree and I would love to know why you think this is a key aspect of the game.

[Tisaac]

I've been lurking on this thread for the last couple days, and I'd like to chime in with a game design perspective. "Hidden but Trackable" is a category of information that is used in game design to play on the limitations of human memory. It is used explicitly on at least a couple other games implemented here, such as Madeira and For Sale.

This GameTek episode provides some very convincing arguments in support of the position that this kind of player aid should not be allowed.
https://ludology.libsyn.com/gametek-cla ... -trackable

The rules and material provided with the game represent the intent of the game and the designer. Hidden but Trackable information is controversial to be sure, but it is a part of this game. A player using this player aid would be playing a different game than others at the table.

That podcast was interesting, thanks for pointing this. I completely agree with the fact that memory is a skill and that you may want to test that skill when you design your games. As the podcaster said "if memory is not your thing, then don't play memory games", couldn't agree more.
So again we are back to the same (and only interesting question here) : do you think 7Wonders is a memory game ?
I personnally think that a lot of strategic skills are more important than the memory one (the list provided by Tadachini is a good example), but of course you may think otherwise and I would love to hear why.

[nmego]

do you think 7Wonders is a memory game ?

That's an important part of the game for sure. The simplest situation that I can think of, is with hands 6-5 with 4p-3p respectively. Those hands will later come back as a 2-hand, so you want to remember what they have so that you can decided whether you'll have a play by then or not. If it is going to be an useless hand, you want to keep a wonder stage open by then so as to not waste a turn.

It also plays a major role with the red cards distribution, it could easily make the difference between winning or losing. Sometimes you can play 2 red cards in age 3 and win the game thanks to that, if you can read the hands well.

Another part where memory matters, is with the green cards. You want to prevent the completion of the first set on age 1 and the third set on age 3. etc... Because science, if not dealt with, can easily spiral out of control, forcing you to fight for second place.

Other examples include, some brown/gray resource cards that you need in Age 2 for your wonder stage or future guilds. You want to keep track of the hands and figure out when they would come to you, or if you could block someone of their wonder stage/some gray resource.

You can figure out the cards in everyone's hand by your second and third hand in 3p-4p respectively. This also majorly effects the game, because you can probably figure out which cards everyone would play to some degree of accuracy. Therefore predicting your next hand, and planning for the future.

Now, all of these examples, make use of memorization. Because you got to remember some "key cards". Part of the skill of the game is learning which cards you want to devote your attention to. Because you can't just remember everything, you have to focus on some key cards to remember. This takes some skill, and makes for a human aspect of the game.

The script on the other hand, completely nullifies that "extremely-important" aspect of the game. Giving you unlimited control to possibly predict the future and plan out the whole game easily. It is a massive advantage for whoever is using it.

But you might be asking, isn't it just the same as using a paper to keep track of everything? No, here's why:
1. It is completely automated, getting a pen and paper and noting things done takes some effort to do. I highly doubt like more than 1% of the players are even using a paper to keep track of their games. But I can bet, that if this script ever gets popular. A lot more would use it. If someone starts using a paper to keep track of everything for their games, they'll eventually get bored and stop doing so. But this script just runs all the time.
2. Using a paper to keep track of stuff also costs time, that takes effect in real-time games which might lead them to be in a disadvantage.
3. It also costs attention, for example, if you're focusing too much in one aspect, you could lose sight of other stuff that might be happening, therefore leading to you making a mistake. But the script on the other hand, requires very little attention span, and very little time.
4. More importantly, you have to keep updating the paper each time something happens. Sometimes you even get absorbed into the game that you'd forget to. The script just updates itself.
So, yeah, it is completely different. There are not that many people who'd commit to using a paper each game to keep track of the hands.

[Foppeke]

I have been reading the posts but not reacting yet...

Some off the arguments are really not adressing the main problem.

Yes. 7 wonders is a strategy game, BUT/AND also a memory game.
It's not relevant to ask wheter it's primarily the one or the other. Knowing which cards you might receive back is also one off the skills needed to be a good player.
Knowing card rotation is extremely important for competetive play ( I assume everyone here has 3 and 4 player max in mind)

So the main point is that this tool takes 1 skill away from the game, the biggest problem(like some have said already) that this game doesn't have a even level playing field anymore.
So solution: Wheter you accept the other players have an edge or you join the 'cheaters' (or you take more notes to reach the same and stall every game for a few minutes...)

Discussions about how important this is, is not relevant. The fact that there is no more even level playing field IS.

[Foppeke]

do you think 7Wonders is a memory game ?

That's an important part of the game for sure. The simplest situation that I can think of, is with hands 6-5 with 4p-3p respectively. Those hands will later come back as a 2-hand, so you want to remember what they have so that you can decided whether you'll have a play by then or not. If it is going to be an useless hand, you want to keep a wonder stage open by then so as to not waste a turn.

It also plays a major role with the red cards distribution, it could easily make the difference between winning or losing. Sometimes you can play 2 red cards in age 3 and win the game thanks to that, if you can read the hands well.

Another part where memory matters, is with the green cards. You want to prevent the completion of the first set on age 1 and the third set on age 3. etc... Because science, if not dealt with, can easily spiral out of control, forcing you to fight for second place.

Other examples include, some brown/gray resource cards that you need in Age 2 for your wonder stage or future guilds. You want to keep track of the hands and figure out when they would come to you, or if you could block someone of their wonder stage/some gray resource.

You can figure out the cards in everyone's hand by your second and third hand in 3p-4p respectively. This also majorly effects the game, because you can probably figure out which cards everyone would play to some degree of accuracy. Therefore predicting your next hand, and planning for the future.

Now, all of these examples, make use of memorization. Because you got to remember some "key cards". Part of the skill of the game is learning which cards you want to devote your attention to. Because you can't just remember everything, you have to focus on some key cards to remember. This takes some skill, and makes for a human aspect of the game.

The script on the other hand, completely nullifies that "extremely-important" aspect of the game. Giving you unlimited control to possibly predict the future and plan out the whole game easily. It is a massive advantage for whoever is using it.

But you might be asking, isn't it just the same as using a paper to keep track of everything? No, here's why:
1. It is completely automated, getting a pen and paper and noting things done takes some effort to do. I highly doubt like more than 1% of the players are even using a paper to keep track of their games. But I can bet, that if this script ever gets popular. A lot more would use it. If someone starts using a paper to keep track of everything for their games, they'll eventually get bored and stop doing so. But this script just runs all the time.
2. Using a paper to keep track of stuff also costs time, that takes effect in real-time games which might lead them to be in a disadvantage.
3. It also costs attention, for example, if you're focusing too much in one aspect, you could lose sight of other stuff that might be happening, therefore leading to you making a mistake. But the script on the other hand, requires very little attention span, and very little time.
4. More importantly, you have to keep updating the paper each time something happens. Sometimes you even get absorbed into the game that you'd forget to. The script just updates itself.
So, yeah, it is completely different. There are not that many people who'd commit to using a paper each game to keep track of the hands.

+1... I was posting before I read your post... let's indeed stall all games to take notes. That's 1 off the solutions

[Tisaac]

I have been reading the posts but not reacting yet...

Some off the arguments are really not adressing the main problem.

Yes. 7 wonders is a strategy game, BUT/AND also a memory game.
It's not relevant to ask wheter it's primarily the one or the other. Knowing which cards you might receive back is also one off the skills needed to be a good player.
Knowing card rotation is extremely important for competetive play ( I assume everyone here has 3 and 4 player max in mind)

So the main point is that this tool takes 1 skill away from the game, the biggest problem(like some have said already) that this game doesn't have a even level playing field anymore.
So solution: Wheter you accept the other players have an edge or you join the 'cheaters' (or you take more notes to reach the same and stall every game for a few minutes...)

Discussions about how important this is, is not relevant. The fact that there is no more even level playing field IS.

I don't understand what you means about the "even level playing field". Either you create tournament/arena with this tool enabled for everyone, either you disable it for everyone. Of course if some players have access to it and others don't, they won't be even, but again that's not the main topic here, at least for the last couple pages.
Taking again the Hanabi example, you could create tournament in which you can store info on the cards (on BGA) and other tournament where you can't do that (like in the physical game). These two are not the same game, but it looks like both are interesting when you look at how many people are playing both ways.
So the question for 7Wonders is : is the game "7WondersWithPythia" still an interesting game or not ? If you take a "real" memory cards like memory, a tool like Pythia would make the game completely uninteresting. On the other hands, there are some games without any hidden infos that are interesting.
So what about 7Wonders ? Would it still be interesting or do you think a good player is "just" someone who can remember the "hidden" cards ?

@nmego, I am not arguing whether memory don't give you any advantage in the game (which of course does), but whether removing that part would still be interesting or not (just as in Hanabi)

[nmego]

I don't understand what you means about the "even level playing field". Either you create tournament/arena with this tool enabled for everyone, either you disable it for everyone. Of course if some players have access to it and others don't, they won't be even.

This is not trivial, this is one of the most important reasons many people are against this tool. I mean, I don't think anyone would object that this tool would be implemented with an enable/disable button, because they can just ignore it. The problem is that this tool is being forced on everyone.

Because such a setting to disable/enable the tool does not yet exist. Therefore, we have an uneven playing field currently. This is a big problem. I'm not even sure if it would be that easy to implement a disable/enable setting. Or if anyone would even bother to implement it.

but again that's not the main topic here, at least for the last couple pages.

Exactly, that's why Foppeke said

Some off the arguments are really not adressing the main problem.

Because, THAT's the main problem. If there was a button to enable/disable it, no one would oppose it. As long as it is not forced on everyone (Which it is right now, because it forces an uneven playing field forcing everyone to use it)

Does that make sense?

[Foppeke]

So the question for 7Wonders is : is the game "7WondersWithPythia" still an interesting game or not ? If you take a "real" memory cards like memory, a tool like Pythia would make the game completely uninteresting. On the other hands, there are some games without any hidden infos that are interesting.
So what about 7Wonders ? Would it still be interesting or do you think a good player is "just" someone who can remember the "hidden" cards ?

1) You are skipping the part that at this moment, using Pythia is a 'choice' (more like 'forcing') , so at this moment there isn't an even level playing field. That is the current issue.

2) To answer the question (for my taste): Yes, 7wonders WithPythia will still be a good game BUT 7 wonders without Pythia is far better. Memory is a part of the game. Your last sentence is incorrect. A good player is not someone who 'just' can remember the hidden cards, a good player is someone who posesses all skills to be a good player, including knowing which cards are still comming around.

For the record ( this is another dicsussion in other posts, but relevant ) the needed skills in 7wonders also depends VERY hard on your opponents. If you are playing against soft competition for example the 'blocking' and for a good part the more strategical choices of the game becomes almost irrelevant because you can't count on other opponents doing the 'right' thing. A lot of kingmaking on the softer games.
Vs when you have (especially) a 3player game with top players, you are FAR more playing the opponents/tackling the person in the lead.
The need to track the cards also increases as competition increases. This IS a part of the game, taking this part away: yes, 7 wonders is still a good game, but for me not complete.

[yellososus]

I too enjoy the memory aspect of the game and stripping it down is a bad decision. Again if you do not like it do not play it, but do not provide/use cheats.

It is again the same as aimbot. I enjoy FPS games, but I cannot aim, why can't I use aimbot to make it a more even playing field. You have never addressed this issue.

[Tisaac]

So the question for 7Wonders is : is the game "7WondersWithPythia" still an interesting game or not ? If you take a "real" memory cards like memory, a tool like Pythia would make the game completely uninteresting. On the other hands, there are some games without any hidden infos that are interesting.
So what about 7Wonders ? Would it still be interesting or do you think a good player is "just" someone who can remember the "hidden" cards ?

1) You are skipping the part that at this moment, using Pythia is a 'choice' (more like 'forcing') , so at this moment there isn't an even level playing field. That is the current issue.

So we all agree on this : using Pythia without your opponent knowing and agreeing is cheating. (Just like someone who would use double accounts or someone who would delay wins in the arena mode to earn more elo near the end of the season) Nothing more to discuss on this I guess ?

Now let's say the dev found the idea interesting and want to propose it as a variant (so enabled/disabled for all the players at the table), the question is "is it worth it or not ?", and the answer will depend on how the community thinks the game will look like with this variant.
If from the beggining of the developpement of Hanabi, every players would have said "I don't want the info on the cards, this is not faithful to the original game", then the devs won't have made the adaptation this way.
So the only interesting topic for me is whether this 7WondersWithPythia is an interesting game or not. We could create another topic for that if you think this is not the main topic here, as you want.

2) To answer the question (for my taste): Yes, 7wonders WithPythia will still be a good game BUT 7 wonders without Pythia is far better. Memory is a part of the game. Your last sentence is incorrect. A good player is not someone who 'just' can remember the hidden cards, a good player is someone who posesses all skills to be a good player, including knowing which cards are still comming around.

For the record ( this is another dicsussion in other posts, but relevant ) the needed skills in 7wonders also depends VERY hard on your opponents. If you are playing against soft competition for example the 'blocking' and for a good part the more strategical choices of the game becomes almost irrelevant because you can't count on other opponents doing the 'right' thing. A lot of kingmaking on the softer games.
Vs when you have (especially) a 3player game with top players, you are FAR more playing the opponents/tackling the person in the lead.
The need to track the cards also increases as competition increases. This IS a part of the game, taking this part away: yes, 7 wonders is still a good game, but for me not complete.

My last sentence was a question... Again, we are not the designer of the game so we can't say what is "part of the game or not" (just as for Hanabi). You might think that this is one of the required skill and I respect and understand that, but I also have the right to think that this memorization is just a waste of computation time. So now the question if whether the vast majority of players think like you and in this case the variant with Pythia would be completely useless, or whether some players would think tournaments with Pythia enabled would be still a good challenge.

Again, if you think this is not the main topic here, we could start another thread discussing the importance of memorization in 7Wonders.

I too enjoy the memory aspect of the game and stripping it down is a bad decision. Again if you do not like it do not play it, but do not provide/use cheats.

It is again the same as aimbot. I enjoy FPS games, but I cannot aim, why can't I use aimbot to make it a more even playing field. You have never addressed this issue.

You are actually defending my case here : aimbot in FPS games kills the game since FPS is (almost) only about aiming, just as a memorization tool for the memory would also kills the game. So you are saying Pythia would kill 7Wonders since 7Wonders is only about memory ?...
Again please read the previous comments to see what the discussion is really about.