Weak Cards Banlist Discussion!

[xaxaQ]

Agree with that list Alex

[Lasertrip]

Supportive of this list.

[Edit - just noticed that you have Telegram on the list. I think the card is fairly reasonable and often draft it as my second minor pick in a pack. If you fence 13 in stage 4, you can play this card to start for a point and get the action back. This seems decent and I don't like it on the weak banlist.]

[Atzedo]

Hi guys i am ok with the list. The only cards i would leave in the game are as follows:

Minors:
Sculpture , social benefits

Occs:
Minstrel, roughcaster

Have the feeling that there are some niches where you can play them. The rest of your list is basically crap and can be removed.

[jcraig314]

I don't have super strong feelings on any of these. I tend to think that there are viable strategies for many weak cards, but in practice their success is so rare, combo-dependent, and mediocre regardless that I'm not opposed to adding to the weak banlist. I can hardly recall seeing any of the proposed cards in games, so I doubt it will dramatically alter arena gameplay!

[YTFYTF]

Personally I'm very against banning minor improvements with points on it without a terrible cost/playing condition. I believe that even if those cards are blank, they are still worth playing in many circumstances. Point ceiling is important in Agricola, and those cards provide the point ceiling required. So, I would propose the following cards to not be added to the weak banlist:

Wholesale Market
Dutch Windmill
Telegram
Mill Wheel
Claw Knife
Sculpture

In the list, I find Wholesale market in the proposed list absurd. A viable card in early veg game, and good point ceiling late game if veg is abundant. Sculpture is the card I'm a bit skeptical, but it still find good uses in early faming game.

[Lumin_S]

The replies here indicate a variety of opinions on certain cards being weak-banworthy or not - this makes sense based on everyone's different playstyles and game experiences in terms of what they've seen work, how willing one is to try speculative strategies, etc. It seems difficult to get a good consensus on some of these cards, and my opinions before having the most recent stats would contribute to making the consensus murkier.

But because we have recent statistics, I strongly believe we should be using PWR as the primary metric for a weak banlist, and think about other stats as secondary metrics. For example, positive Elo/Play typically indicates that there is a niche for a low PWR card and negative Elo/Play can possibly indicate a card is a newbie trap (which IMO is one of the best benefits of having such a banlist.)

That said, in the latest stats, Growing Farm had a 0.00 PWR in the latest stats on 715 deals. This is one of only two such minor improvements. If there is a weak banlist, Growing Farm must be on it.

My disagreements with Alex's list (including things already on the weak-ban list) are:
Occs - Do not ban Pig Stalker or Furniture Carpenter. Both have PWR 0.3 or higher and Elo/Play above 4.0
Occs - Ban Interior Decorator, Riparian Builder, and Bean Counter. All have PWR 0.2 or lower and Elo/Play below 0.0
Minors - Do not ban Oven Site*, Lifting Machine*, Stable Manure, Carpenter's Yard, or Wholesale Market. (*) means Elo/Play well above 5.0 and the others have PWR above 0.5
Minors - Ban Growing Farm, Heart of Stone, and Claw Knife. All have PWR 0.3 or lower and Elo/Play below 0.0

Note that based on PWR alone, my opinion is that the Elo cutoff for Occupations should be roughly 0.3 and for Minor Improvements roughly 0.4 (the worst minors live in a demonstrably higher range of Elo than the worst occs.) I do think it's appropriate for there to be fewer weak-banned minor improvements given they naturally have a lower opportunity cost to play.

[lezurichois]

Hi all,

I agree that we could add a few cards to the weak card banlist. I think overall the current weak card banlist has made this arena season more enjoyable. I am giving my quick review of Alex's suggested updated list: (thanks Alex for all your efforts!)


MINORS
Cards I would like to ban or keep on the ban list:
Perennial Rye
Lifting Machine
Mill Wheel
Silage
Dutch Windmill
Cattle Farm

Cards I don't have strong feeling about. I could see them fun/useful in some games, but I won't be upset if they are placed on a weak card banlist:
Telegram
Social Benefits
Brotherly Love
Oven Site
Farmyard Manure
Elephantgrass Plant
Carpenter's Yard

Cards that I would prefer to keep in the game:
Wholesale Market (this can be a lot of food if you have a strong early veg source)
Sculpture (the card is absolutely playable with strategies that give you great fence tempo or e.g. with field doctor)

As you can see, I am slightly incline to ban fewer minors than most expert players who have voiced out their opinions. I can see these minors being playable in different no-so-crazy strategies/games. It's also okay if we have to start or grow without a minor once in a while.


Occupations:

Cards I would like to ban or keep on the ban list:
Curator
Catcher
Sequestrator
Paymaster
Breeder Buyer
Forest Scientist
Huntsman
Resource Analyzer
Twin Researcher
Forest Campaigner
Sugar Baker
Tree Inspector
Loudmouth
Pig Stalker
Cooperative Plower
Roughcaster
Small Animal Breeder
Forest Tallyman
Hardworking Man
Large-Scale Farmer
Full Peasant
Mummy's Boy
Culinary Artist

Cards I don't have strong feeling about. I could see them fun/useful in some games, but I won't be upset if they are placed on a weak card banlist:
Furniture Carpenter
Minstrel

EDIT: Re Lumin's suggestions: I am fine with banning claw knife, growing farm, riparian builder and bean counter. Interior decorator seems like it could work well in some cases and heart of stone is too fun if it works. I would prefer to keep these three cards. I don't think we should discard cards only based on statistics, since it does not factor the "fun" part of playing some of these cards.

[alexwjb]

Thanks to everyone for input, it really helps.

Lumin makes an excellent point about everyone's different playstyles/what people have seen work, etc. For example, I have a particular fondness for Growing Farm, having seen it work well in a game I was commentating on recently. But it could not be worse in the recent stats (0 wins, 15 plays with strong negative elo/play.)

I also agree that it is fine for there to be more occs than minors on the list, given how the game works.

To summarise recent responses, let me order the cards by number of objections for each. I'll add my thoughts throughout. Then at the end I'll make a new proposal taking all views into account.

No objections
Curator
Catcher
Sequestrator
Paymaster
Breeder Buyer
Forest Scientist
Huntsman
Resource Analyzer
Twin Researcher
Forest Campaigner
Sugar Baker
Tree Inspector
Loudmouth
Cooperative Plower
Small Animal Breeder
Forest Tallyman
Hardworking Man
Large-Scale Farmer
Full Peasant
Mummy's Boy
Culinary Artist
Riparian Builder
Bean Counter

Perennial Rye
Cattle Farm
Brotherly Love
Silage
Elephantgrass Plant

These cards have no supporters among those who have posted since my suggestion. But note that some people agreed with my original list and so did not have the opportunity to object.

One person has objected
Minstrel (I continue to think this card is banworthy, but not devastated if it comes back)
Furniture Carpenter (One of various "can be a way of getting points in ways that are normally bad" cards. I prefer to keep banned but agree it's among the more marginal here)
Pig Stalker (Right on the 0.3 PWR borderline and played less than 5% of the games in which it is dealt. I prefer keeping banned)
Roughcaster (I strongly prefer to ban. Its PWR is 0.09 and its elo/play is strongly negative)
Interior Decorator (The stats on this are very bad. I would not be sad to see it banned)

Oven Site (It's true the elo/play is strongly positive. Goes unplayed in 95% of games in which it is dealt. But perhaps it is playable enough?)
Lifting Machine (Strong elo/play, but given it only costs 1 wood, I have a suspicion this is only because it gets played in games that are winning anyway/where playing any card is beneficial (eg Seed Almanac). I continue to think the card is terrible and should remain banned.)
Stable Manure (I agree that the stats suggest this should be brought back)
Dutch Windmill (Strongly disagree. Just because a card has points on it does not mean it should be immune to banning. The PWR is very bad for a reason.)
Mill Wheel (Ditto.)
Social Benefits (Low power and negative elo/play. It's an awful card.)
Carpenter's Yard (I prefer banning but take the point that its PWR might not quite be low enough.)
Claw Knife (Low power and negative elo/play. Not included originally because Siveure preferred to keep, but personally I am fine to ban.)
Growing Farm (I have a soft spot for the card but the stats are unarguable. Fine to ban.)

Two people have objected
Telegram (I prefer banning, as does Cranes strongly! But I don't have strong feelings.)
Heart of Stone (A card that is mostly terrible but can very rarely be the centrepiece of a strong game. I think it should stay on that basis.)

Three people have objected
Sculpture
Wholesale Market

These have too many objections to ban.


New proposed banlist
Curator
Catcher
Sequestrator
Paymaster
Breeder Buyer
Forest Scientist
Huntsman
Resource Analyzer
Twin Researcher
Forest Campaigner
Sugar Baker
Tree Inspector
Loudmouth
Cooperative Plower
Small Animal Breeder
Forest Tallyman
Hardworking Man
Large-Scale Farmer
Full Peasant
Mummy's Boy
Culinary Artist
Riparian Builder
Bean Counter
Pig Stalker
Minstrel
Roughcaster

Perennial Rye
Cattle Farm
Brotherly Love
Silage
Elephantgrass Plant
Lifting Machine
Dutch Windmill
Mill Wheel
Social Benefits
Claw Knife
Growing Farm

[-MightyW-]

Nice! I would like this implemented this new season if at all possible. It keeps the season a bit fresh and gives a good opportunity to evaluate!

[lezurichois]

Nice summary! That list looks great to me