Error in game implementation?

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nandblock
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Joined: 23 December 2015, 02:13

Error in game implementation?

Postby nandblock » 13 July 2018, 17:44

I like Haggis but there seems to be an error in the implementation: when you go out, the game gives you a notice like this:

"nandblock goes out first, taking all remaining cards and the Haggis, and gets 9 points"

Am I really getting all the cards that are left? I should ONLY be getting points for the Haggis, not for the remaining cards in my opponent's hand (beyond the 5 points per card I have already been separately awarded, i.e. I shouldn't get points again for the same leftover cards if they happen to be 3/5/7/9 or face cards).

In addition, it is very confusing that the implementation gives no information in the sidebar about past game history. It just says "so-and-so plays a set" or "so-and-so plays a bomb!" or "so-and-so passes". -- That might be OK in live play but it's terrible for turn-based play, you have to constantly replay the game just to figure out what cards have been played.

I'm assuming given that this implementation was done some years ago that the odds of fixing it are low, but I see the developer is just "Boardgame Arena" so I would hope it could be reopened? It wouldn't even be a very complicated fix.

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RicardoRix
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Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: Error in game implementation?

Postby RicardoRix » 13 July 2018, 21:34

yeah, I've replayed a round and it ended with '...and gets 5 points'. There were a 6, 7, and 9 left in hand (2 points in total), so where 5 comes from I have no idea, and as you say the rules say JUST 5 points per remaining *card* for the haggis.

The turn-based log has been discussed before, it's like that on a few games, and yes it's as good as useless.


^^edit for clarity.
Last edited by RicardoRix on 14 July 2018, 17:32, edited 1 time in total.

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nandblock
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Re: Error in game implementation?

Postby nandblock » 14 July 2018, 16:27

Hm, I'm not sure I understand the comment "just 5 points per remaining for the haggis". -- At the start of each round in a 2-player game, 8 cards are set aside for the Haggis. At the end of the round whoever goes out first gets all the points from the cards in the haggis, plus 5 points per card left over in the opponent's hand. And both players score whatever point cards they captured. But the error in the BGA implementation is that it ALSO seems to be giving the player who goes out the points from leftover cards in their opponent's hand, ON TOP of the 5 points per card (e.g. if the opponent has still got a King leftover at the end, that would be a total of 5+5 = 10 points rather than 5).

At least, I THINK that's what happens, Since the sidebar doesn't actually list the cards played or won in tricks, and the contents of the haggis are never revealed at the end of the round, I find it completely impossible to track what's going on. The site just awards you points without explanation and moves on.

It's really frustrating!

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nandblock
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Re: Error in game implementation?

Postby nandblock » 14 July 2018, 16:35

The game's designer weighs in here: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/660060 ... ay-lose-my

"You've learned the game by playing it at boardgamearena, but the implementation at there misrepresents the scoring for the Haggis: it combines the Haggis score with the score for any point cards remaining in the opponents hand. The Haggis, in 2 player, contains 8 cards so the most points it could contain is 8 points. Since half the cards that could go into the Haggis are point cards, and half are not, you'll expect the Haggis to have around 4 points on average. In 3 player, the Haggis contains 3 cards; so you'll get 0,1,2,or 3 points from it - negligible, most of the time. The purpose of the Haggis is not so much about points, it's about supplying uncertainty about which cards are or not in play, so a negligible point contribution is fine."

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RicardoRix
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Re: Error in game implementation?

Postby RicardoRix » 14 July 2018, 17:41

sorry, missing word 'card' - I meant 'per remaining CARD'.

My point was that I agree with you, something is wrong with that part of the scoring, BUT the extra points awarded do not seem to relate to the point value of the cards in the example hand that I looked at.

My example I analysed:

cards remaining 6,7,9. That's 2 normal card points, 0 points from the 6, 1 point from the 7 and 1 point from the 9.

15 points awarded for the haggis. CORRECT. (3 x 5) (3 cards x 5 points per card)
5 extra points awarded. NO IDEA WHY. text log says "taking all remaining cards and the Haggis, and gets 5 points". The winning player score went from 22, to 27 and then to 42.

Lotus Blossom
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Joined: 12 November 2017, 01:45

Re: Error in game implementation?

Postby Lotus Blossom » 15 July 2018, 00:23

The remaining cards would be 5 points per card of the person with the most cards. The haggis is what has not been dealt from the beginning, and depends on how many point cards are in it. Are you sure that's not what happened? Sorry, been a while since I played it, could be misunderstanding something.

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nandblock
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Re: Error in game implementation?

Postby nandblock » 15 July 2018, 00:27

15 points awarded for the haggis. CORRECT. (3 x 5) (3 cards x 5 points per card)


No, this is wrong. The haggis is the pot of 8 hidden cards left over from dealing out the hands. The haggis is separate from the points awarded for cards remaining in your opponent's hand after you go out (5 points per card). The haggis could only ever be worth 8 points max, as it contains no face cards. -- The problem with the BGA implementation is precisely that it confuses the two things. Or at least the message in the sidebar confuses the two things.

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RicardoRix
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Re: Error in game implementation?

Postby RicardoRix » 16 July 2018, 20:15

ok, yeah, got that wrong then I guess.

But I think I know where in my example 5 points come from.

2 points from the cards in opponents hand, and 3 card points in the haggis. That's the best I can come up with without analysing more games.

Looking at the rules, I can see how it's not 100% clear about the 'captured' cards.

Rules wrote:All cards remaining in the final player’s hand and the Haggis are captured
by the player who went out first. Remember to record the number of cards
(including wild cards) in the remaining player’s hand.

Scoring
Points are scored for 1) Cards left in your opponents’ hand, 2) Points cards
captured during trick play and 3) Bets.
A player that goes out will score 5 points for each card in the hand of the
opponent who held the most cards at the moment she shed her last card.
Remember, wild cards count as part of the hand.
All point cards (i.e., any 3, 5, 7, 9, J, Q, or K), captured during trick play,
score their point value for the capturing player.
Points for any bets are scored. If the bet was successful, the amount bet
will be added to the player’s score. If the bet was not successful the amount
bet will be added to the score of the player first to “go out” and any other
opponent that did not bet on this round.

Lotus Blossom
Posts: 29
Joined: 12 November 2017, 01:45

Re: Error in game implementation?

Postby Lotus Blossom » 26 July 2018, 18:24

Having played this again, I can confirm it is indeed awarding the point cards left in the opponent's hand in addition to the five point per card. I think this should be reported as a bug, more chance of someone looking at it than on this board. Any takers?!

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nandblock
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Joined: 23 December 2015, 02:13

Re: Error in game implementation?

Postby nandblock » 26 July 2018, 20:11

I already did, but there's been no reply. But feel free to thumb it or add your own reply to it as that might help get the problem addressed.

https://en.boardgamearena.com/#!bug?id=10527


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